A few newbie questions (Please?)

[toypusher]

IraRat,

DO NOT drill holes in the crossmembers for the conduit, just run it under the crossmembers and use tiewraps or conduit hold down straps (not what they are called officially) to hold it in place. Refer to the Cubby plans on page 28 to see what I mean.

Kerry

[IraRat]

Got you.

And here is the Sunday 11AM update. (No pictures yet, because I was too busy working to take any boring pictures of red metal pieces.)

Here's my assessment:

I seriously hope Kuffel's plans are better as I get deeper into the project, because they sure as heck stunk as far as the chassis assembly goes. I also made a point of e-mailing Kevin there to ask if the modifications were the same for my lighter weight trailer, and he said no difference (except for cutting off 2 little pieces that extend down to accommodate the not used rollers/caster assemblies).

First, the only way to begin with this is to completely assemble/modify the side rails, so you have two full lengths of the sides. Otherwise, it would be next to impossible to drill your holes at a horizontal position on jack stands, as opposed to putting the pieces flat on the grass and drilling down into them. I fortunately figured this out BEFORE beginning any real work, but man, it would have been nice if it was originally explained like this in the plans.

The only pieces that are labeled as to their part numbers are the cross members (2B), and thank God...because by eliminating these from the full list of parts, you can actually figure OUT the identification of the other parts. (It seems like this would be real easy to do anyway, but it would have saved me a half hour if they just could have stuck labels on all of the pieces in China. They could have even done it in CHINESE.)

When you utilize the cross-members to strengthen the rails, you naturally want to center these between the two parts you're joining. However, doing so allows you to use only SOME of the pre-drilled holes already there, but you still have to drill through the other member. In some places, you have to drill through both members, to place your bolts where you know they will do the most good. And yet other holes are good for nothing. I used 6 bolts per left and right joining members, 3 each side.

This means you're left with a darn strong side rail, with a darn lot of bolt heads and holes you would rather not see. So I now know that I'm definitely going to Krylon this, also for the inevitable little scratches you create when handling the pieces. I'm also going to install some kind of finishing piece/molding that can be drilled into the side rails to cover these unsightly heads and holes. This means I have to determine SOON the kind of skin I'm going to use, because that will determine the paint. (I'm leaning toward Woody's floating varnish-covered Birch paneling above. Gorgeous.) Fortunately, these holes and heads are on a pretty narrow horizontal, so even a narrow finishing piece will be adequate.

I wound up using the bolts that came with the kit, because I don't want to spend foolishly yet and they didn't "look" too bad to me. Also, not one twisted or deformed all day.

After drilling a few holes with a high-quality Titanium bit, I took a break and ran to the store to pick up my wood and a different bit, and this new bit worked a thousand times better. Just a cheap B&D black steel bit. (Best $2.50 I ever spent.) It took FOREVER with the "better" titanium one.

Also, when assembling the complete side rails, there was just no way to totally butt the front and rear pieces on one of the sides. I'll deal with this 1/16 to 1/8 discrepancy later, but what could I do? I attached the first bolt to say, the front part. I then drilled the first bolt hole for the rear part, angling my drill to the center so it would later "pull" to the center where they join, when you tighten that second bolt. But on that one side, no dice. The pieces as manufactured were simply off a little.

Next, any novices out there who are going to use this same trailer per these same plans, make sure you have TWO wrachets handy, and cherish them . The bolt heads and nuts are different sizes, and you're definitely going to want to use them simultaneously.

The plans say an impact drill would save you a lot of time tightening the bolts, but I say FORGET it. You're going to be tightening in a lot of different positions/angles, and I don't see how you could handle a big electric thingy in one hand and a wratchet in the other to secure the nut. The wratchets work FINE, except that there are just a few spots where mine wouldn't fit, so I used pliers to hold the nut. (Plus, one of my wratchets got stuck and broke in one of these spots toward the end of the day, so off to the store again for me!)

Next, the wooden cross member you have to install:

The plans make no sense here at all. You can't knotch that piece to sit flush with the top of rails, because it would only be like 1/16 thick, so what good is that going to do? It also wouldn't be flush, so I think this refers to the heavier duty trailer with a flange. You don't later actually notch the members of the floor frame for this, right? Wouldn't that be a little ridiculous?

Also, the plan's dimensions for this piece of wood were wrong for my trailer, and I couldn't find what seemed to me to be the RIGHT dimensions of douglas dry (or other wood) at Home Depot. So since I know I don't yet have the tools nor skills to cross-rip a 4 X 4 vertically to the exact proper height, I did this:

I purchased two 8-foot lengths of 1 by 6, cut them to approximate length, and sandwiched 3 pieces together using Elmer's Polyurethane Ultimate Glue. (I bought the big bottle, because I know I'm going to use a lot of this in the weekends to come.) This assembly is dry today, which I'll finish up with some wood screws and utimately place screwhead side down. I'm not installing the floor hatch, so I didn't have to worry about going a bit wider on this wood.

I made an engineering "guess" here because this wooden cross member's purpose is for floor support and as a spreader for the side rails. Heck, the plans don't even call for ATTACHING this to the steel. Also, I've always heard that several pieces of wood properly glued together are stronger than one piece anyway.

The only problem I have is that I'm still like 1/16 short on the height. I'll probably glue an additional laminate thickness piece of wood on top for a true flush with the side rail, as opposed to shimming it up a little.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time on this yesterday, but I actually DIDN'T when you consider everything and where I am. Not only did I get a late start, but there were a few trips to the store involved, and I had a few errands to run as well.

So it's "kind of" assembled sitting on the jack stands now, with the vertical bolts mostly tightened but the bolts that go in on a horizontal (except for the side rails, of course) NOT tightened. These are going to determine that I get the true 4 X 8, and even though the vertical bolts play a part in this, they will "give" as a I tighten the side ones. I also just this second made a decision to NOT tighten it until my floor assembly is completely done and protected with asphalt coating on the underside:

It seems to me that the ONLY way for me to get my true 4 X 8 on the chassis (I'm terrible with this task) is to place the complete floor assembly there first, bolt one or two corners to the steel, and start tightening the side bolts. I might be totally off on this (your thoughts?) but I can't see any downside to doing it this way.

Axel assembly? I'm glad you asked:

It got dark, so I took these parts inside to take a look and figure it out.

Duh???????

I give Kuffel's plans an F here, but I can't rate Harbor's poorly because their instructions include all of that fold and roll assembly. I know that I don't NEED all of those parts, but is there one that I DO need? Like I'm not using the supplied fenders, so I don't know if I need to install one of those brackets/parts for the fenders I ultimately decide to use. Only another day in the backyard will determine that. Also, I simply don't "get" Kuffel's illustrations on the axle assembly. They even appear to have the spring mounted upside down as compared to Harbor's. I wish I could see a photo of how this is supposed to look.

Help? Anyone?

I have a bunch of computer work to do today, and I think that's a good thing. Slow and steady is going to win the race for building this right, and I don't want to make any rush, "My back is killing me" decisions. I was even going to run to the store again last night to buy a new wratchet set and a few new bolts that Kuffel says I'm going to need (without indicating the size), but I came to my senses.

Tomorrow's another day, and it will eventually get done.

Thanks for listening, guys, and if you see anything above that might mean my ultimate, grizzly death and the deaths of countless innocents, please let me know. I also hope that my lengthy diary here will help some new builders with limited abilities such as myself.

[ALAN GEDDES]

Rat, Square it up by measuring diagonaly. Adjust with a hammer until both measurements are the same and it should be square providing that both sides are the same length and the front and rear width are the same. Also suggest that you use a level before finally tightening everything down.

[IraRat]

Rat, Square it up by measuring diagonaly. Adjust with a hammer until both measurements are the same and it should be square providing that both sides are the same length and the front and rear width are the same. Also suggest that you use a level before finally tightening everything down.

Hey, Alan. You're the first guy on the internet, after all of these years, to immediately realize that my nickname is RAT! (Comes from my last name of Ratner.)

Here's my problem with the leveling, and I'm really glad you brought this up NOW because I know it's going to also be a major issue when I assemble the sides:

I'm unfortunately forced to work in a not-at-all-level grass work area. The chassis assembly is now on these inexpensive yet strong jack stands that really don't allow precise height adjustments. They're the type that maybe allow you to raise in like 3, 4-inch increments? Don't know. Additionally, they're the type where you can't simply lower the thing smoothly. It comes down with a bang. It doesn't rise and descend smoothly like a regular car jack.

Am I going to have to buy better jack stands, or is there a workarond to this? Like just adjusting each jack to approximate level, and then shimming under the trailer where it meets the jack?

That's my whole issue with trying to square this up prior to assembling and semi-attaching the floor. If I start banging with a hammer to square it, there's no way it will stay on those jacks, with only gravity keeping it on there.

[toypusher]

I am not sure about your jacks, but I probably would use shims under the jacks and not on top of them. As far as hammering around on it, you should use pipe clamps and a long piece of pipe to square the trailer up. once it is square, you can put the deck on it and drill the mounting holes. Just build the deck on a flat surface and make sure that it is square when you build it, then it will also help you to ensure that the trailer is square.

After the trailer is squared and the deck is bolted in place, you should only be using screws to fasten things together. The should be no hammering involved. Therefore the trailer should set on the jacks just fine. Plus, everything that you put on it adds to the weight and will help hold it all in place.

The trailer you have weighs about 216lbs, if you put the axle and wheels on it.

You could also try to build a sort of jig with 2x4's to connect the jacks together and then put the trailer on top on this structure. I mean, build a box sort of around the top of the jacks and make sure that it is square and level before putting the trailer on top.

If you are worrying about how to get it off the jacks when you are finished, you should be able to use the tongue to raise the front and remove the jacks from there, then get a couple of friends to help lift the back and remove the jacks from there. The finished teardrop should weigh 800lbs or so. You should be able to raise one side at a time to remove the jacks. Also, you should be able to take it off the jacks once the bulkheads and spars are all in place.

This is all just my opinion and probably what I would do in the scenerio that you laid out.

Kerry

[An Ol Timer]

Two things that have been in my shop for a while now are an inexpensive rotary laser level and several packages of door and window shims. These in conjunction with my stick ruler let me check periodically any vertical measurement. I do this for all building projects of any size. If you keep the lengths, widths and diagonals to proper size and the verticals level you can't go wrong.

[IraRat]

How hard is it to learn to use one of those laser levels?

Anyway, finding a flat surface to assemble the deck is no problem. It's just that zoning forbids me to park any trailer in that flat concrete area--not a new one and definitely not one under construction!

But I'm glad you got me thinking more seriously about my level issue. What I'm going to do is counter-bury 4 stone walkers/pavers to put the jacks on, and use squares of plywood under the jacks to level them up. (Gee, thanks for pointing me in this direction NOW, before I put that axle assembly on! Maybe it's a good thing I was too dumb to figure out how to do that this past weekend.)

Also, this level thing can be a recurring "problem" for me, because where I live in South Florida, we're getting into our torrential rainy season soon. (Not the hurricane season, which comes even later.) So, with a few heavy downpours, those pavers may settle, meaning messing around with the shims.

If I was only rich with a 3-car garage.

Anyway, if anyone can point me to a photo that shows how those springs are mounted, I would appreciate it.

[TomS]

This thread is quite timely. I assembled my 5x8 Red Trailer this weekend. My situation is similar to Ira's. Specifically, I'm building on a very uneven lawn. I also have ratcheting jack stands.

I haven't concerned myself with the leveling the frame yet. I keep turning the frame over on the jack stands to access various parts of the frame. Every time I flip it. I disturb the set up. If I adjusted the jackstands every time, I'd spend more time playing with the jack stands than building my frame.

After reading Ira's posts, I went out in the yard this afternoon with a level and adjusted the jackstands. After about 15 minutes of fiddling, I got the buble within the lines for both rails and the front and rear cross members. It wasn't perfectly centered on each one. But, it's close enough for now. Once the frame painted, I won't need to move it. Then, I'll get it perfectly level before I build the body..

How hard is it to learn to use one of those laser levels?

A string level is a Hell of a lot cheaper. Heck, buy two or three and you can check it in multiple directions at the same time.

I hear you Ira on the desire for a garage. I spent the winter building various assemblies in my basement while waiting out a New England winter.

I've got to say, I strongly disagree with Ira regarding the Kuffel Creek plans. I think you find the general consesus of the folks on this board is that they are the best teardrop plans available. I have no metal working experience. I struggled a bit fitting the spring hangers. But, I would have struggled a lot more with out the plans.

I still need to do a bit more work on the spring hangers before I can paint. Specifically, I've got a couple of bolt head that interferes with the springs. After thinking about it for a day, I decided that the soloution tot that problem is to move the bolt and drill two more holes.

Anyhow, I put some photos of my frame build up on my site yesterday

[Geron]

A string level is a Hell of a lot cheaper. Heck, buy two or three and you can check it in multiple directions at the same time.

I've struggled with string levels in the past and found that a good 4 ft level gets me a lot closer to level than the string levels. Maybe I just didn't know how to use them 'cause I'd always go back and check with my 4 footer just to make sure. Always had to adjusts a little beyond the sting levels.

I've got to say, I strongly disagree with Ira regarding the Kuffel Creek plans. I think you find the general consesus of the folks on this board is that they are the best teardrop plans available. I have no metal working experience. I struggled a bit fitting the spring hangers. But, I would have struggled a lot more with out the plans.

Gotta agree about Kuffel Creek plans. Maybe a little gap here and there but on the whole I don't think they can be beat. Couldn't have done without them. Thanks Kevin!!

Geron

[Larwyn]

How hard is it to learn to use one of those laser levels?

Anyway, finding a flat surface to assemble the deck is no problem. It's just that zoning forbids me to park any trailer in that flat concrete area--not a new one and definitely not one under construction!

But I'm glad you got me thinking more seriously about my level issue. What I'm going to do is counter-bury 4 stone walkers/pavers to put the jacks on, and use squares of plywood under the jacks to level them up. (Gee, thanks for pointing me in this direction NOW, before I put that axle assembly on! Maybe it's a good thing I was too dumb to figure out how to do that this past weekend.)

Also, this level thing can be a recurring "problem" for me, because where I live in South Florida, we're getting into our torrential rainy season soon. (Not the hurricane season, which comes even later.) So, with a few heavy downpours, those pavers may settle, meaning messing around with the shims.

If I was only rich with a 3-car garage.

Anyway, if anyone can point me to a photo that shows how those springs are mounted, I would appreciate it.

Rat,

I work outside with no level surface also. In fact this picture is titled "What level surface" in my personal album...

I used heavy sawhorses, pipe stands, ratchet straps, even machinests jack screws and most of all gravity to help square and level my HF frame. Stick with it you will solve the problem, and once you have the trailer flat, square and level you finally have a level surface.....

[IraRat]

I've got to say, I strongly disagree with Ira regarding the Kuffel Creek plans.

That may indeed be the case--but I'm just giving some warning to first-timers about the plans as they relate to MY trailer in this part of the plans, in the event some folks decide to use this lighter, cheaper model. (Especially since Kuffel actually highlights it on their site.)

Can you believe that I went outside yesterday after work, took another look at it, and STILL can't figure out the complete axle assembly? And I'm not THAT stupid--REALLY!

I connected the axle to the springs using the u-bolts and square plates, and now I have this as one unit, sans wheels. I am ASSUMING I can attach this to the trailer as one unit, but I still can't figure out exactly how. Since this trailer is designed to take the axle where it folds, HF's instructions show a lot of superfluous parts that aren't needed, parts for the casters and such--but I can't seem to figure out if there IS a part I have to install. These are all like small, silver brackets and L-shaped thingies.

And when you refer to the term "spring hangers" Tom, you mean the really large pieces that attach to the rails, correct? That the springs will attach to? They don't USE that term in the HF directions, and this is the part that is stumping me!

I'm sure that I'll take another look at it tonight, and tomorrow, and the day after that, and hopefully figure it out on ONE of these days.

I decided to mount the axle below the strings for a slightly higher profile. It's going to look funny enough being pulled by a pickup with a full-length bed, and I thought the extra inch or so of height would help a LITTLE. Also, this will hopefully and definitely eliminate the need to notch anything out for axle clearance.

Also, Tom, I'm going to paint too. What are you going to use? Krylon? I really stink at spraying, and I was thinking of using a brush. Any downside to this?

I can't wait to get the trailer frame done, because I simply can't tell you how excited I'm getting about installing that small piece of plywood for the spare tire!

[TomS]

The "spring hangers" I'm referring to are the brackets that the springs attach to. According to the Kuffel Creek plans, you need to place the axel 36" from the rear of the trailer. In my case, I had mount them several inches to the rear of the locations specified by the Red Trailer directions.

In locating these hangers, I drew a pencil line on each side rail 36" from the rear of the trailer. Next I, measured the distance between the center of the two large holes that mount the springs mount using large bolts. Then, I divided this distance in half and drew a another line. If you look very closely at the photo below, you'll see the lines just above the notch I cut to allow for the axel to travel.



This is where the "fun" began. When I positioned the spring hanges, I found that I had some bolts in my way. To make things really interesting, the hangers partially overlapped a couple of the bolts. I had to modify the cut the spring hangers in several places to make them fit. Whereever possible, I tried to use holes that I already drilled rather than drilling new ones. There was one aspect I hadn't considered. When I test fit the springs, I found the some bolt heads were in the way of my springs. So, I had to drill new holes anyway.

I have some Krylon spray paint. But, I'm also considering brush painting it. I plan to test the spray paint on a piece of scrap.

[IraRat]

Oy......

I gotta eat dinner now, but this is MY problem!

Those CURSE WORDS bolt heads are in the way and I can't install the Spring Hangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Woody]

TomS,
Is the trailer the problem or is it because of shifting the axle back from it's normal position causing the bolt head problem that you refer to? How does the integrity of the center seam (middle) that the spring hanger would tie together normally being moved affect the rigidity of the frame. Did you reinforce that area? Just curious from looking at the picture

[TomS]

Oy......

I gotta eat dinner now, but this is MY problem!

Those CURSE WORDS bolt heads are in the way and I can't install the Spring Hangers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ira,

Take it slow and to think it through. I you look at the photo in my previous post, you'll see removed all the bolts that were in my way and clamped the hangers in place. This will give you a good idea of where you need to cut and drill to fit it.

This area of your frame will be hidden by the wheel and fender. It doesn't need to be pretty. But, it needs to be strong. I've got four bolts holding each hanger to the frame, 2 through the bottom, 2 through the side.

I'm not a patient person. I have low tolerance for fustration. When I get fustrated, I find it's best to put down my tools and take a good long break. Quit for the day if you have to.