Access / baggage door at angle?

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Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby knova » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:13 pm

Would putting a door like this, at a 45 degree angle where my roof slopes in the front, be a bad idea from a water intrusion perspective? I was thinking about adding this so I could access my electrical system from the outside... i can access it from the inside only if I remove my PD4045, and even then I wouldn’t have an easy time looking at my circuits/wiring.

I’m not worried about this door fitting, just worried that water would seep in at one of the worst places for water to seep in...

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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:34 pm

knova wrote:Would putting a door like this, at a 45 degree angle where my roof slopes in the front, be a bad idea from a water intrusion perspective?


Yes. (If I understand what you are saying.)

Imagine where the water that lands between the door and frame is going to go. It will sit against the door seal until it evaporates, or run in when you open the door. Eventually the seal will fail (they all do eventually). Those types of doors are designed to be vertical, where most of the water that blows in between the door and frame can run right back out.

I'd look for some sort of access panel designed to go on a boat deck, or similar. Something designed to shed water instead of trapping it.

Tom
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby tony.latham » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:02 pm

Under what circumstances would you need to access it?

My fuse box is accessible but I may never have to look for a blown fuse.

Tony
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby knova » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:08 pm

Thanks Tom. That’s a good thought. I searched a bit and found this which I think will work out a bit better. https://www.amazon.com/Seaflo-Marine-Ac ... eature_div

I think this would work as the lid covers the internal seal, so water wouldn’t sit in the crack and enter when I open the door. The perimeter around the door would be sealed appropriately like any other door.

@tony - looks like I wrote this comment and you had posted a reply. I’m worried about something failing in my 12v setup and needing to get in behind my converter to adjust cabling. I guess it also allows me a way to add circuits in the future easily, of course I wouldn’t be able to hide the new cabling in the cabin (I would use some kind of cable raceway like they sell at the big box stores)

Thinking about it some more, I might wait to install this as well. I very well could be overthinking my need to access the electrical area in the future, at least on a frequent-enough basis that id need a dedicated access hatch. In the meantime, I’m leaving plenty of slack on my cabling so I can pull the PD4045 out if necessary. The good thing is I can always cut in for this door later if needed.
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Squigie » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:13 pm

In theory, it should work.
But I wouldn't trust one. Especially the plastic ones.

Based on what you've said, I'd be thinking this is an area infrequently accessed. If so, plan for access from inside (enough to work, not just to peek and poke), or cut a big hole and put a permanently sealed access panel on the outside. If you have to get in, you can. But the need to clean and reseal the panel means you won't be poking around for giggles, and you'll be better motivated to do it right the first time.
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby tony.latham » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:26 pm

I very well could be overthinking my need to access the electrical area in the future, at least on a frequent-enough basis that id need a dedicated access hatch.


Isn't overthinking the norm for teardrop building? :thumbsup:

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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby knova » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:32 pm

tony.latham wrote:
I very well could be overthinking my need to access the electrical area in the future, at least on a frequent-enough basis that id need a dedicated access hatch.


Isn't overthinking the norm for teardrop building? :thumbsup:

Tony


Considering I’m in year 2 of my first TD build, i think I can get behind that line of thought. (To be fair my wife and I had our first kid in there too!)
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:45 pm

knova wrote:
tony.latham wrote:
I very well could be overthinking my need to access the electrical area in the future, at least on a frequent-enough basis that id need a dedicated access hatch.


Isn't overthinking the norm for teardrop building? :thumbsup:

Tony


Considering I’m in year 2 of my first TD build, i think I can get behind that line of thought. (To be fair my wife and I had our first kid in there too!)


'Bout where I am. (No kids in between. Couple of other projects, retirement, starting my own consulting business*, etc. though.)

Yes, that second access panel looks better than a cargo door for what you're thinking of doing. FWIW, I'm building our PD4045 into a cabinet above the teardrop galley counter. We'll have easy access to the fuses and circuit breakers. I may design the cabinet so we have to take out the PD4050 to get to the wiring, but I'm sure going to look for a better way first! ;)

Tom

* Consulting in a subject is so esoteric, if you needed my services, you'd already know me. :lol:
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 pm

tony.latham wrote:Under what circumstances would you need to access it?

My fuse box is accessible but I may never have to look for a blown fuse.

Tony


Hi Tony. In the PD 4045 fuses and 120 VAC circuit breakers are accessible from the front, but I don't think that's what Knova is talking about(?) Problem is that the 12 volt outputs from each fuse are an 8 inch wire hanging out the back of the unit, and getting them tied to something (and getting to them later, if necessary) is a bit of a challenge without some other way to get back there. I think that may be the problem Knova is considering(?)

One can crimp or soldier each wire to the wire going to the lights/fan/etc., but there would have to be a lot of slack once the PD4045 is re-installed, and that tends to get sloppy. And, of course, sloppy wiring may lead to other problems. (Did I write all that so it makes sense? I have a mental picture in my mind, but not sure I'm getting it down clearly.)

Knova, one way I'm thinking may work is to have the front panel on the electrical cabinet hinged on one side, with the PD 4045 mounted in the front panel and the wires tied to a terminal block near the hinged edge. That minimizes the amount of slack required.

But then, I'm really thinking of my problem, not yours. But I hope it may help. Think I would go to a lot of effort to avoid having to make an access in the walls or roof of the camper, especially in the roof. "There are two kinds of skylights--those that leak, and those that will some day". I'm thinking it would be the same here no matter how well made the access cover is.

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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby knova » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:22 pm

Tom&Shelly wrote:
tony.latham wrote:Under what circumstances would you need to access it?

My fuse box is accessible but I may never have to look for a blown fuse.

Tony


Hi Tony. In the PD 4045 fuses and 120 VAC circuit breakers are accessible from the front, but I don't think that's what Knova is talking about(?) Problem is that the 12 volt outputs from each fuse are an 8 inch wire hanging out the back of the unit, and getting them tied to something (and getting to them later, if necessary) is a bit of a challenge without some other way to get back there. I think that may be the problem Knova is considering(?)

One can crimp or soldier each wire to the wire going to the lights/fan/etc., but there would have to be a lot of slack once the PD4045 is re-installed, and that tends to get sloppy. And, of course, sloppy wiring may lead to other problems. (Did I write all that so it makes sense? I have a mental picture in my mind, but not sure I'm getting it down clearly.)


Bingo. And I didn’t plan on accessing the back of the electrical panel once everything had been installed on the trailer. This is an after the fact thought. And again, I’m not certain it’s necessary; I’m wiring my trailer with plenty of light circuits and some extra outlets in the rear/hatch area. I think it’s more a peace of mind thing if something were to wiggle loose in transit or something. But outside of my terminal ground block, everything is crimped or connected with wire nuts and then excessively taped with elec. tape. I think I’m just worrying about a non existent problem.
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby tony.latham » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:43 pm

I think that may be the problem Knova is considering(?)


You guys are reinforcing my 12 volt mantra: Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. (to infinity) :?

:thumbsup:

T
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:18 pm

tony.latham wrote:You guys are reinforcing my 12 volt mantra: Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. Twelve volts. (to infinity) :?

:thumbsup:

T


Oh well, some of us can make anything complicated, even 12 volt circuits. In a few days I'll post a pic of the hatch wiring in my build thread. Now I finally understand why experienced builders don't put all their taillights on the back of the hatch! Glad the electrons know where to go! :?

Tom
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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby tony.latham » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:47 am

I'll post a pic of the hatch wiring in my build thread.


I'll be curious to see it. I thought about it last summer. It makes sense to have the taillights poking at folks from the hatch.

But the more I thought about it... :frightened:

We're packing our bags and headed out tomorrow. Hopefully, we'll catch a fish or two in some great country. :beer:

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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Florida Native » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:02 am

knova wrote:In the meantime, I’m leaving plenty of slack on my cabling so I can pull the PD4045 out if necessary.

This is your solution. You should never need to get back there and pulling the PD4045 isn't the end of the world even if you need to do it every few years. Much better than fighting with sealing a big hole in pretty much the worst possible place of your trailer.

-Mike


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Re: Access / baggage door at angle?

Postby Squigie » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:40 pm

It wasn't initially obvious to me that this was an inverter you were dealing with.
Once that was pointed out, I started thinking about all of the trailers and motorhomes that I've owned or worked on*, and where their inverters were and what kind of access there was. *(Too many!)

As long as you get the installation right the first time and find a safe way to leave plenty of slack in the wiring, I think you should be okay.
But additional access is never a bad thing.


Most of my small trailers and tent trailers had the inverters in a dinette seat or the side of a storage area. Access was easy or reasonably acceptable.
Most of the larger trailers and all but one of the motorhomes (the exception below) had uncomfortable but reasonable access to the back of the inverters from the outside - via the storage area for the shore power cord.

With two exceptions, I never had to do more than probe a few of them with a multimeter, unless I was just flipping a main breaker for storage or travel.
Those exceptions were:
1. A tent trailer with an inverter that would overheat and short out in about 5 minutes while on shore power, and randomly trip the main breaker on battery power. I never camped anywhere with shore power, and most of the DC system in that trailer was already cross-connected with brake and tail lights and screwed up from the previous owner, so I just cut and removed all wires to and from the inverter, fully rewired the brake and tail lights, and went to a propane lantern for lighting. (The furnace was already a convection unit requiring no electricity, and had been installed in place of the fridge.) Ditching the 30+ lbs of shore power cord and 120+ lbs of batteries more than made up for leaving the weight of a dead inverter to plug the hole in the bulkhead.

2. A motorhome with an inverter / power center that wouldn't charge the coach batteries any more. The size and layout of that motorhome meant that the shore line storage area did not align with the back of the inverter. The wiring on the inverter / power center only had about 1" of slack. And the inverter was in a small compartment under the fridge, that was glued and stapled together after the inverter was installed. As a result, the only way to get to the back of that inverter, or replace it, was to remove the refrigerator and pull the compartment top off, or cut a big hole in one of the walls. So, I did nothing. I went to pre-charging the batteries, a "lights only" approach to power consumption, and I could recharge the batteries, if absolutely necessary, with a small generator. (Which I only ever had to do once.)

C. I never worked on this one, other than minor troubleshooting, but followed and was often queried for input on the epic saga. My grandparents owned a 2003 Allegro motorhome that had serious issues charging the batteries, and they would discharge rapidly for no apparent reason. Eventually, we traced the issue to the "digital" inverter / power center. In this case, the inverter was above the fridge, and had the same problem as my motorhome - the fridge had to come out, or big holes had to be cut. And the quotes that they got for the job were incredible ($2k+). They fought that piece of garbage for almost 10 years, before finally reaching the boiling point. They couldn't stand the concept of paying thousands of dollars to fix it, simply because the manufacturer cared more about ease of assembly than future repairs; but also didn't think they'd ever be happy with it again, if they did pay out (and they were, by then, far too old to be worrying about electrical issues). So, they dumped the motorhome - with full disclosure about its problems - for a substantial loss.

This just keeps getting longer. I remembered another one.
IV. A trailer that a friend of mine owned. The inverter crapped out while deep into an isolated canyon in Utah. The only access to the back of it required removing the generator from its rear compartment. Possible? Yes. Reasonable access once done? Yes, if a bit filthy. But then you can't troubleshoot the system, because half of the wiring had to be disconnected to remove the generator.
(We did dump the generator out of the back of his trailer and hotwire the trailer to my small generator, on that trip. He went home with my generator strapped to his bumper, and his generator in the back of his truck.)


I'm not sure what the moral of these stories is, but I think it's something along the lines of:
Think it through.
Access is good.
Lack of access is a death sentence -- in the forms of abandoning the equipment in place, living with constant problems, or in having to tear your trailer up and do substantial repairs.
Complicated access may not be beneficial.
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