Don’t buy peaches at Wal mart !!!

[Socal Tom]

Walmart was a topic in my business class. Did you know the discounts that are available at Walmart are worth more than than the welfare paid by the federal government. Low income people a helped everyday by the low prices at Walmart.
I've had friends that work at Costco. They are very generous, but there is a down side. If you are a driven worker, you can't leave. Since they pay more than anyone else, if you decide you are tired of being a checker, you can't leave, cause it probably means a pay cut. I agree that companies should prove the same benefits to their workers they give their officers, but it still needs to be consistent with market wages, or you end up trapping your workers.

Tom

[Fenlason]

Walmart was a topic in my business class. Did you know the discounts that are available at Walmart are worth more than than the welfare paid by the federal government. Low income people a helped everyday by the low prices at Walmart.
I've had friends that work at Costco. They are very generous, but there is a down side. If you are a driven worker, you can't leave. Since they pay more than anyone else, if you decide you are tired of being a checker, you can't leave, cause it probably means a pay cut. I agree that companies should prove the same benefits to their workers they give their officers, but it still needs to be consistent with market wages, or you end up trapping your workers.

Tom

So Costco is at fault for paying well?? I have had friends that had well paying paper mill jobs. Some liked it, some eventually wanted to pursue employment that they could be more passionate about, but it was hard for them to give up the money. So that is the Mill's fault? Some did eventually leave, and were happier, and wished they had done it sooner.. others have stayed.

I am not attempting to "stick up" for Costco.. I don't shop there either. While Walmart may not treat the employees great or their vendors or… or… or. My primary reason is because they don't sell good product inexpensively, it is because they sell junk. I find them part of what is "wrong with America" People focus on low prices, not on value. In the drive for low prices [at any cost] quality is bound to suffer.

[GerryS]

I know you mean well...but I have a different opinion.

Low income people are hurt every day by walmart, even if they "help" a portion of them. The best way to help a poor man, is to give him a job. These people wouldn't need help at all if they could find jobs tht paid more than minimum wage, and Walmart has done everything they can to drive those jobs out of this once great nation.

Try buying a set of canon towels, Haynes or other textiles, or an Elgin wrist watch, or a Coleman anything that was made in the USA. Almost all of our manufacturing is gone. We can't even make a car without Chinese help. And don't kid yourself, china is no friend of the USA. Once they have sucked all they can from us, they will cripple us by simply not allowing container ships to leave their harbors with good set to come here. In a few weeks we will be crying for them to come and take land and resources from us, just please put a ship in the harbor with our necessities on board that we used to be able to make ourselves. Once that happens, you better speak Chinese.

Walmart has Driven manufacturing complete out of this country into those very hands. How? Through the constant demand for cheaper and cheaper without regard for quality or the companies who made them. When your company makes something, and Walmart says "we will pay x cents per unit or well buy from brand x" out of the pure need companies will find a way to do it regardless of how, Because they are out of business if they don't. Right now my company is in the proces of laying off 20% of my department for these same reasons. Those jobs are going to India. Walmart has sucked the economy dry, not by themselves, they certainly help set the tone of business with target, Meijer, Sears, and penny's running behind them trying to catch up.

Remember too, it is the same business schools is they are all taught by the same mindset....education in general is an echo chamber for over the over educated with no common sense. Remember, it's. Business schools thought those that gave you derivative markets and this ticking time bomb of debt and spending. People are educated far beyond their intelligence and then allowed to make policy decisions because of those initials behind their names. Lots of knowledge about bad data tempered by no common sense.

So when some nimrod professor at a college says something I always think to myself, is this how gramps would have done it? Because in his day our country had a good standard of living, there were jobs available from companies made things here, like cars, sewing machines, chemicals, farm implements, and the best lathes in the world....in my home town. South Bend Indiana. Today the biggest employer is a university and a hospital. All of those other businesses are gone forever...

Look up Studebaker, Singer, Oliver, and south bend lathe. Now a company of these sizes putting up a help wanted sign would get front page news and people from cities in the next state flooding in to fill out an application...just to show the unemployment office they are trying to get work because they've applied for every job in their own town 5 times already.

[Woodbutcher]

We live in a competitive world now. Both businesses and individuals compete everyday for the same things. Individuals compete for the best jobs and businesses compete for the money we make at those jobs. Some people spend many years in school and learn what is needed to compete at a high level. Others do only the minimum in school. Then when it comes time to contribute to the work force they have little to offer. So they end up in entry level jobs. Some work hard and get promoted, others do not. The idea is to not be satisfied with these entry level jobs, but not because they don't pay well but because a worker did not invest enough in himself to be able to earn more. What is Walmart really guilty of? They offer products that we in the USA buy. About 1 Billion dollars a day worth in sales. So someone finds value in their products. The fact that so much of our manufacturing has gone away was by our choice as consumers. We wanted the lower prices, and we shopped where they offered them. Also remember that many of those factory jobs of years past were met with the same complaints that the fast food and Walmart jobs of today have. Low wages and no future. Many of these jobs today were meant to help the young to get a first job. Now many argue that McDonalds should pay it's workers $15.00 per hour so they can make a living wage. Those jobs were not intended to support a family on. If you want to earn more money offer an employer more skills. That does not mean I can work the fryer and the malt machine.

One of my first bosses was an advertising executive that worked on major campaigns for National brands. When he was just starting out in the business, he was given the job of promoting a very cheap stereo directed at low income consumers. He expressed to his boss that this stereo was junk. His boss said, remember, this may be the best stereo that some people can afford. So therefore it is a value to them.

I don't eat peaches but if I did I would not be afraid of buying from Walmart. My local Walmart has produce that is better then some and worse then other local grocery chains. I know which stores have the best produce at the best prices. So I go there. It is all about choice. We as Americans can take our business where ever we want. It is up to those businesses to keep us happy or the close, as JCPenny's and Sears will soon. They just could not figure out how to continue to compete.

[Socal Tom]

Walmart was a topic in my business class. Did you know the discounts that are available at Walmart are worth more than than the welfare paid by the federal government. Low income people a helped everyday by the low prices at Walmart.
I've had friends that work at Costco. They are very generous, but there is a down side. If you are a driven worker, you can't leave. Since they pay more than anyone else, if you decide you are tired of being a checker, you can't leave, cause it probably means a pay cut. I agree that companies should prove the same benefits to their workers they give their officers, but it still needs to be consistent with market wages, or you end up trapping your workers.

Tom

So Costco is at fault for paying well?? I have had friends that had well paying paper mill jobs. Some liked it, some eventually wanted to pursue employment that they could be more passionate about, but it was hard for them to give up the money. So that is the Mill's fault? Some did eventually leave, and were happier, and wished they had done it sooner.. others have stayed.

I am not attempting to "stick up" for Costco.. I don't shop there either. While Walmart may not treat the employees great or their vendors or… or… or. My primary reason is because they don't sell good product inexpensively, it is because they sell junk. I find them part of what is "wrong with America" People focus on low prices, not on value. In the drive for low prices [at any cost] quality is bound to suffer.

I'm just saying it's not a black and white issue. Personally, I'd love to see CEO paid tied to employee retention. Instead they are rewarded for firing people. Walmart could probably have more full time people, then They would have fewer employees. The assumption is that everyone wants a full time job. I'd rather my wife had a part time job then she could spend more time with my son, but in here field of work part time jobs are hard to come by. If everyone paid like Costco, would they still be paying well or would inflation mean they were just paying he same as everyone.?

I'm not arguing for or against anyone, just pointing out there are other sides to the discussion. Ultimately it's a morality issue and we all will choose sides based on our beliefs, and there is probably no wrong side.

It's also easy for us to throw stones at "Wall street", when much of the stock on Wall Street is owned by retirement funds. Check your iRA funds, and you may find you own Walmart stock.
Tom

[Fenlason]

Walmart was a topic in my business class. Did you know the discounts that are available at Walmart are worth more than than the welfare paid by the federal government. Low income people a helped everyday by the low prices at Walmart.
I've had friends that work at Costco. They are very generous, but there is a down side. If you are a driven worker, you can't leave. Since they pay more than anyone else, if you decide you are tired of being a checker, you can't leave, cause it probably means a pay cut. I agree that companies should prove the same benefits to their workers they give their officers, but it still needs to be consistent with market wages, or you end up trapping your workers.

Tom

So Costco is at fault for paying well?? I have had friends that had well paying paper mill jobs. Some liked it, some eventually wanted to pursue employment that they could be more passionate about, but it was hard for them to give up the money. So that is the Mill's fault? Some did eventually leave, and were happier, and wished they had done it sooner.. others have stayed.

I am not attempting to "stick up" for Costco.. I don't shop there either. While Walmart may not treat the employees great or their vendors or… or… or. My primary reason is because they don't sell good product inexpensively, it is because they sell junk. I find them part of what is "wrong with America" People focus on low prices, not on value. In the drive for low prices [at any cost] quality is bound to suffer.

I'm just saying it's not a black and white issue. Personally, I'd love to see CEO paid tied to employee retention. Instead they are rewarded for firing people. Walmart could probably have more full time people, then They would have fewer employees. The assumption is that everyone wants a full time job. I'd rather my wife had a part time job then she could spend more time with my son, but in here field of work part time jobs are hard to come by. If everyone paid like Costco, would they still be paying well or would inflation mean they were just paying he same as everyone.?

I'm not arguing for or against anyone, just pointing out there are other sides to the discussion. Ultimately it's a morality issue and we all will choose sides based on our beliefs, and there is probably no wrong side.

It's also easy for us to throw stones at "Wall street", when much of the stock on Wall Street is owned by retirement funds. Check your iRA funds, and you may find you own Walmart stock.
Tom

Agreed.. it's not black and white. That is why I generally stay out of that aspect of the Walmart "issue".

My issue, as stated previously, is the quality of products they sell, and I don't single them out as the only one selling "crap". [although I think they are the one of the worst driving us in that direction] Woodbutcher.. your example of the stereo. I guess for me it depends if junk stereo just didn't have the sound quality of a better unit, or if it quit working in 6 months? Yeah not everyone can afford something better, but what about the option of doing without, or saving up until you can? It all seems to be part of this entitlement "stuff" that seems all to common today. When my wife and I were first married, we had no stereo.. we could not afford it so we went without. Early on, our Television died.. we went without until we could afford it.
You say Walmart is only giving what the consumer wants, and sadly for the most part I have to agree with that… but I see for the most part today's consumers are pretty ignorant. As stated before Walmart just doesn't find a way to be more efficient to sell things less expensively.. they sell cheaper stuff. Again I don't just single them out. It is common with many box stores. If we had a wiser buying public all this infomercials would not be on Tv. Most of them [if not all] are hawking junk.

A John Deere lawn mower from Home Depot is no where near the quality of what is purchased from a Dealer… and I don't think they are that much less expensive.
Televisions… years ago I was in the television business. K-Mart sold a televisions that was the same brand as one of the brands that we sold…they looked the same outside, and even had the same model number, inside it was not the same machine at all. People think they are buying the same thing for less, while in reality.. they are buying less. Many box store bicycles are UNSAFE!
Years ago my wife was given 2 pair if lycra tights from Walmart as a gift. Both pair the seems let go, as she was putting them on for the first time… the fabric was cheap.. as was the assembly. Pure junk they served no purpose at all.
I use Husqvarna equipment. Originally they were a dealer only item.. then they started also selling out of box stores. My last saw of theirs was a junk [even though dealer bought]… was it just a bad model.. .. or is their stuff cheaper now. I don't know… but because I don't know.. and because they moved to box stores… I moved onto a different brand.

I tend to shop local. While I can't say that I haven't purchased things from Home Depot, I prefer a local lumber yard… and I don't shop around from yard to yard. I find one I like, and I give them my business… they know that, and treat me well.
Back when I was building my house, we temporarily moved into an old house trailer. It's plumbing was copper tubing, not even pipes. Some of it had frozen and burst. I cut out the bad sections to bring it with me, for replacement. I went to a variety of places.. I was told a variety of "stuff" "oh that's and odd size they don't make it anymore etc. Then I got to a place. and the clerk told me, it froze this many times before it burst.. [expanding it's size a little each time] and this is the size you need. You know what after that, they got all my plumbing and electrical business. I did not shop around for price.. on each item. I went to them. Could I have found some items cheaper somewhere else? Perhaps. To me, my time was of value, and they knew I was a good customer.. and they treated me well. Our hot water heater.. was of course from them.. when I was ready for one. I just went in to see what my options were.. they had just had an open house, so they had this expensive stone line water heater.. it was out of it's original box. They sold it to me not much over their cost. I did not ask for a deal.. or beat them up on anything.. and you know what I probably saved more money on that water heater alone.. compared to what I might have saved shopping for price on each item… plus their knowledge and willingness to help and educate a homeowner invaluable.

[GPW]

Apologies , I didn’t mean to open a "can of worms" ... I just wanted some Peaches ...

[Fenlason]

Apologies , I didn’t mean to open a "can of worms" ... I just wanted some Peaches ...

I guess you didn't read the forum's guidelines. No religion, no politics and no peaches... hmm maybe that was no Walmart...

[48Rob]

Opinions breed more opinions...

The fact that so much of our manufacturing has gone away was by our choice as consumers. We wanted the lower prices, and we shopped where they offered them.

Steve, you are correct.
And Wal Mart is not the first in history; mankind has "shopped" for millennia.

Rob

[Mojave Bob]

The way I see this, there is plenty of blame to go around. There is always a demand for lower prices, and there is always some business willing to use price-point as their primary marketing strategy. Where I start to have a problem with it is when the company is willing to take a parasitic approach - creating a downward spiral in the community. WalMart is not the first to do this, they won't be the last, but they are the current major culprit.

As alluded to in an earlier post, it is the dishonesty of WalMart that is appalling. Back in the day, I ran a hardware store, and was a top-tier distributor for a number of brands, including among others, Black & Decker, Skil and Hoover. All three companies fell victim to WalMart, and were selling the "exact same" model at WalMart for below my cost. "How?", I asked, "I am a top-tier distributor. Nobody buys cheaper than I do." Well, the items looked the same, but weren't. the WalMart versions had smaller motors, shorter cords, vinyl cords instead of neoprene, sleeve bearings instead of ball bearings, and so on. The were a far inferior tool, being sold under the same part and model number. The owners manual for the ones I sold said to return the item to the manufacturer if servicing was needed. WalMart's said to return the item to the place of purchase for refund or replacement. In other words, mine were designed to be serviceable, their's were not.

The way it works is this: Say you make a widget that costs you $1.00 to make, and you sell it to distributors for $1.50. You have the capacity to make 100,000 of them a month. You currently produce about 80,000. WalMart approaches you and says, "We want to buy your widget. We want 90,000 of them a month. But, we will only pay $1.25. If you say no, we will buy our 90,000 widgets from your competitor instead." So, you say yes, you expand your production capacity at considerable cost, and you produce 170,000 widgets a month. After a year, WalMart comes to renegotiate the contract for the year. They say, "Your widget sold pretty well. This year, we want 120,000 widgets a month, but we will only pay $1.15." You just invested in the new manufacturing plant, you can't afford to lose their business, and now your non-WalMart business has dropped to only 50,000, because of WalMart undercutting prices in the stores, so you reluctantly agree, and you look for ways to cut costs. Next year, WalMart comes to renegotiate the contract, and they say, "We want 150,000 widgets a month, but we are paying $.90 each." You say, "I can't even make them for that. I would have to lower quality and wages." They say, "Sell them to us for $.90 or we will take our business elsewhere." That means you will be out of business. So, you agree, you cut wages and benefits, you move jobs overseas, and the cycle continues.

That is my problem with WalMart. You might (correctly) argue that that is just how business works, and you would be right, except that it isn't necessary to beat up your suppliers. In my business, I want to pay as little as reasonably possible, but I WANT my suppliers to be profitable, because that means they can produce a higher quality product, it means their employees can be adequately provided for, and it means they will still be in business next time I need to place an order. WalMart doesn't see it that way. And, if I make negotiating the lowest possible price my highest priority, I have become like WalMart. Ewwww!

[Fenlason]

The way I see this, there is plenty of blame to go around. There is always a demand for lower prices, and there is always some business willing to use price-point as their primary marketing strategy. Where I start to have a problem with it is when the company is willing to take a parasitic approach - creating a downward spiral in the community. WalMart is not the first to do this, they won't be the last, but they are the current major culprit.

As alluded to in an earlier post, it is the dishonesty of WalMart that is appalling. Back in the day, I ran a hardware store, and was a top-tier distributor for a number of brands, including among others, Black & Decker, Skil and Hoover. All three companies fell victim to WalMart, and were selling the "exact same" model at WalMart for below my cost. "How?", I asked, "I am a top-tier distributor. Nobody buys cheaper than I do." Well, the items looked the same, but weren't. the WalMart versions had smaller motors, shorter cords, vinyl cords instead of neoprene, sleeve bearings instead of ball bearings, and so on. The were a far inferior tool, being sold under the same part and model number. The owners manual for the ones I sold said to return the item to the manufacturer if servicing was needed. WalMart's said to return the item to the place of purchase for refund or replacement. In other words, mine were designed to be serviceable, their's were not.

The way it works is this: Say you make a widget that costs you $1.00 to make, and you sell it to distributors for $1.50. You have the capacity to make 100,000 of them a month. You currently produce about 80,000. WalMart approaches you and says, "We want to buy your widget. We want 90,000 of them a month. But, we will only pay $1.25. If you say no, we will buy our 90,000 widgets from your competitor instead." So, you say yes, you expand your production capacity at considerable cost, and you produce 170,000 widgets a month. After a year, WalMart comes to renegotiate the contract for the year. They say, "Your widget sold pretty well. This year, we want 120,000 widgets a month, but we will only pay $1.15." You just invested in the new manufacturing plant, you can't afford to lose their business, and now your non-WalMart business has dropped to only 50,000, because of WalMart undercutting prices in the stores, so you reluctantly agree, and you look for ways to cut costs. Next year, WalMart comes to renegotiate the contract, and they say, "We want 150,000 widgets a month, but we are paying $.90 each." You say, "I can't even make them for that. I would have to lower quality and wages." They say, "Sell them to us for $.90 or we will take our business elsewhere." That means you will be out of business. So, you agree, you cut wages and benefits, you move jobs overseas, and the cycle continues.

That is my problem with WalMart. You might (correctly) argue that that is just how business works, and you would be right, except that it isn't necessary to beat up your suppliers. In my business, I want to pay as little as reasonably possible, but I WANT my suppliers to be profitable, because that means they can produce a higher quality product, it means their employees can be adequately provided for, and it means they will still be in business next time I need to place an order. WalMart doesn't see it that way. And, if I make negotiating the lowest possible price my highest priority, I have become like WalMart. Ewwww!

Well said

[Woodbutcher]

Bob, you make some good points. I am not trying to defend Walmart but they were not the first or the last to do business this way. Sears was doing it with Craftsman tools long before Walmart was on everyone's radar. In the early 70's I was in the unfinished furniture business. A supplier began selling a very modern solid oak knock down living room set. It sold very well to the unfinished market all over the country. Every Mom and Pop shop had it, as did mine. Well delivery times started to get longer and longer, till we all finally got a letter telling us they could no longer service our account. Turns out they broke into some major furniture stores, including Marshall Fields in my area. All small stores lost out to the big retailers. In 6 months the company was broke. They failed to realize that all the Mom and Pop stores were supplying the cash flow that keeps every business going. Once they put all their business in only a few baskets they were starving for cash. Large retailers don't pay in 10 days and take their discount. Big retailers paid in 90-120 days if you were lucky.

My point here is those companies that Choose to "sell out " to the big retailers do so of there own free will. Neither Walmart or Home Depot or any other big player can force a manufacturer to take their deal.

[48Rob]

That is a very good argument, and clearly spelled out. Thank you.

The were a far inferior tool, being sold under the same part and model number.

My question is not to argue, but to understand;

If "A company" agrees to make a "Wal mart" version of a product with inferior parts, but identical model numbers, etc. so they can get their product into the store, how does that make Wal mart dishonest, or at least the only one to blame?
Unless they are forced at gunpoint to do this, doesn't that make the company that supplies Wal mart dishonest as well?

Rob

[Mojave Bob]

Rob -- an excellent point, and the answer is, "yes, it does". That is the short answer. WalMart was requiring the matching part/model numbers in the supply contract, for the specific purpose of running the ma & pa stores out of business. They would post pictures of our item and price next to theirs, and flat-out claim that they were selling the same item for less. I had more than one very pointed conversation with my suppliers, and dropped a couple of them from my line-up. That is the part that makes WalMart dishonest.

By the way, no, this isn't just a grudge because WalMart ran my store out of business. They didn't. My store thrived, because I chose do do battle with them on something other than price. I started purchasing select items at WalMart, and putting them on display next to my display item, and highlighting the differences. I made sure my sales staff could clearly articulate those differences, and I made sure they were knowledgeable about our products. I made customer service much more than just easy returns. We did just fine.

But, yes, the manufacturers are also complicit, with the caveat that they are under duress. If I am Black & Decker, and WalMart wants 100,000 drills under their terms, the right thing to do is to say no, since the terms stink. However, I also know that if I don't do it, they will go to Skil, and I can't afford to have my competitor in WalMart and not be there myself -- it becomes a market share problem. If I lose market share, my credit rating goes down, and my costs of doing business go up. So, it isn't an easy problem to answer. Most companies end up selling their souls over it.

There was a day when I could stock several drills at various price-points, and simply sell them according to what they offered -- you only want a couple of holes at low cost? I have that. You want a tool that will hold up well for the weekend warrior? I have that. You want a professional-grade tool? I have that. The customer could come in, seek advice from a knowledgeable salesperson, and leave with a tool that met their needs at the price that also met their needs. The WalMart Syndrome has caused an across-the-board drop in quality -both product and service quality - in all but the most high-end products.

[Fenlason]

Bob, you make some good points. I am not trying to defend Walmart but they were not the first or the last to do business this way. Sears was doing it with Craftsman tools long before Walmart was on everyone's radar. In the early 70's I was in the unfinished furniture business. A supplier began selling a very modern solid oak knock down living room set. It sold very well to the unfinished market all over the country. Every Mom and Pop shop had it, as did mine. Well delivery times started to get longer and longer, till we all finally got a letter telling us they could no longer service our account. Turns out they broke into some major furniture stores, including Marshall Fields in my area. All small stores lost out to the big retailers. In 6 months the company was broke. They failed to realize that all the Mom and Pop stores were supplying the cash flow that keeps every business going. Once they put all their business in only a few baskets they were starving for cash. Large retailers don't pay in 10 days and take their discount. Big retailers paid in 90-120 days if you were lucky.

My point here is those companies that Choose to "sell out " to the big retailers do so of there own free will. Neither Walmart or Home Depot or any other big player can force a manufacturer to take their deal.

Sears did it to them selves they cheapened their own tools.. and didn't have several versions of the same tool. That is a very different situation. What happened to you with the unfinished furniture is unfortunate… but I don't see it the same as what Walmart does.