buying Lithium batteries price question

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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby MtnDon » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:08 pm

I imagine the gas/smoke that was released would not be good for us to breath. That would not stop me from using LFP batteries though. We use lots of other materials that can be toxic; XPS and EPS foams for example. They release toxic smoke if burned. The fumes from some adhesives and fiberglassing materials are not healthy to breath. Many of us use those all the time. The tanks and cans of gasoline and propane we all use are also energy dense"bombs" but do we eschew their use because of that? We can find many more items that are more likely to cause fires or kill us in other ways tha LFP batteries.

And I seem to repeat myself a lot on this; there are many different lithium battery technologies. They are all generically lumped together as being lithium ion batteries by the press and most of the general public. It's a little like wood; lots of species of trees with densities that vary from Balsa to Lignum Vitae (lignum vitae makes excellent mallets because of the density and hardness). Just because a balsa mallet would break early in use does not mean the wood is dangerous or has no good use.

The Dreamliner uses Lithium Cobalt Dioxide batteries. They are more energy dense, more energy in the same size space as the LFP batteries that are the target of discussion here. LiCoCO2 can cause fires under some circumstances. Those batteries suffered a thermal runaway; some cells got too hot and caused a chain reaction. Many destructive tests have been done with the LiFePO4 type and I have not seen any that produced flames. Some smoke or gasses, but they never caused a fire. That demo video was a deliberate act of shorting the cell. If anyone of us did that to a standard FLA battery what do you think would happen? I have seen the aftermath where such a short caused the FLA to explode. AGM batteries that are so beloved by many can, under the right situation, also suffer a thermal runaway. We don't hear about that as it is infrequent and has never happened in something so newsworthy as a multi-million dollar flagship airliner. Who's interested in the meltdown on Fred's boat, other than Fred?

I worry more about the initial shock to my checkbook and the cold weather charging than anything else when it comes to LFP.
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby bdosborn » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:23 pm



However, Pesaran noted that jet fuel and gasoline are more energy-dense than batteries and carry fire risks, as well. For the most part, the public has grandfathered these problems and regulatory agencies have a well-established protocol for dealing with problems that arise from hydrocarbons (ClimateWire, Nov. 30, 2011).


I think this is a a good perspective on the battery issues. Can you imagine if a company introduced gasoline into the present litigious environment? They'd be sued out of existence within a year. However, the reality is that we don't think twice about carring tens of gallons around all the time. Wait 5 years and it will be the same way with batteries after people get used to the risk.

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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby wtcreaux » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:54 pm

Jerry,

Do you have to build a container for the 4 cells?? Can it be wood, or does it need to be metal banding?? I received a reply back from your link and the total cost would be $636 for 4-100 Ah batteries delivered to the Dallas area TX.......
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:10 pm

aaa early adopter.png
aaa early adopter.png (118.21 KiB) Viewed 573 times




This is my Cartoon of the day....... for lithium batteries..... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Its funny how this Battery is now 20 years old, but its really just impossible to convince folks its 10X BETTER.....
I can't even call myself an early adaptor because that implies that at least 2.5% of you all are using Lithium Batteries in your trailers, cars or RV's.
but thats not the case I'm the only one out of what 1,000+ guys on this blog forum , maybe one out out of 10,000+ even
you guys are still stuck using a battery that's complete JUNK & is 170 years old......
are clueless how much Lead acid batteries suck vs Lithium but you guys are all EXPERTS.....
in why you wanna wait to upgrade after I get 10,000 cycles, they build better BMS, they wont explode, 20 years service from mine & Lithium batteries becomes totally FREE
This is human nature....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I was forced to switch because the lead acid sucked & would not run my AC.......
so I'm really not an Innovator or early adopter.... just a guy forced to make a better choice.
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby abqlloyd » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:57 pm

Lithium is so old school. Get with the program already.


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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby Deediggler » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:11 pm

So, where should I order a 200-300ah battery set up from? I'm convinced that Lithium is the way to go, but it still needs to be reasonably priced.

Also, would my PD4045 still work with a lithium set up?
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby abqlloyd » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:58 pm

Don posted a link above. I added all the items up including the batteries and extras and it was about $1550.
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:26 pm

Here is a link for CALB $134 for a 100 AH cell ...lowest I have seen retail

My advice is get 40- 50% of the AH you had in flooded. you can always start with a single 4 x 100 cells for 100ah 12v, then add another & add another & add another as you grow.
Its not like flooded batteries where you can not do new and old.

2.) don't worry about BMS to get you started. (( it will force you to watch battery & learn first ))
3.) Don't charge a cell over 3.55 to 3.6 volts x 4 total.
4.) Don't go below 2.5 volts max, 2.8 volts is better.
5.)Set Absorb at max 14.2 - but 13.9 is still ok , set HVD at 14.2 max or lower
6.)set equip LVD at 12.9v = 85 - 90% DOD
7.)don't charge battery below freezing 32F - keep inside trailer, no gas no maintenance.

Any MPPT charge controller works if you can set Absorb max 14.2 - but 13.9 is still ok
Any charger works ..... worst case watch voltage & disconnect by hand


http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/100Ah-32V-2C-br-CA100FI-br-CALB-EV-Lithium-LiFePO4-Prismatic-Cell-Batteries-br-USA-Stock-br-56L-26W-86H-in-br-142-67-219-mm-br-75-lbs-34-kg-br-For-Quantity-Pricing-and-Specifications-See-Details_p_38.html
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby walkrdg » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:40 pm

I've just finished using my cargo trailer for the household hauling I wanted to do, and I'm just now starting to put plans to paper, so I'm not intensely interested in the purchase of lithium batteries - But... I am interested in "what's happening", so I try to keep up. I ran into some fascinating information by a couple using LifeFePO4 batteries in their vintage bus conversion. I found it very useful and well written. If you haven't discovered them already, try http://www.technomadia.com/lithium. Technomadia also has a presence on YouTube and they have a discussion under: "Lithium Ion LiFePO4 Batteries for RV House Systems (Jan 2014)"

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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby MtnDon » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:16 pm

The manual for the PD4000 series states the maximum voltage output is 14.4. They also use the word approximately when talking about voltages and times. You should read the manual and maybe talk to PD. Myself their maximum 14.4 ( divide by 4 = 3.6) is a little too close to the maximum recommended for LFP. Since LFP are more sensitive to high and low voltages than FLA that would worry me. I'm not an expert, just relaying my concerns.

Personally I would want a charger that would allow me to program the charge voltages.Maybe check out the chargers at that link OTTCT posted, they have chargers as well as the LFP batteries. There are folks using LFP in RV's with success. I do not have any idea what they use for 120 VAC powered charging. Maybe the above concern about the PD's is much ado about nothing. I don't know for sure, but suggest that be checked out. There must be some LFP user info and real life experiences on one of the big RV forums. ?? I have not looked.

There is another concern, again for myself because I know myself pretty good by now... If I used the "watch the voltage and manually disconnect" method of charging I would certainly make toast one day. Probably not the first time, but one day I would lose track and.... bingo! Toast! Lots of +points to LFP but high or low voltage tolerance is not one on them. LFP also have a relatively flat voltage from minimal charge to full charge. Look away too long and before you know it the voltage could cross from safe to uh-oh. Again, no personal experience but I read graphs pretty good. They have what is called a lower and an upper "knee".


I have heard good things about Victron equipment (used in that RV link posted by walkrdg)
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby abqlloyd » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:42 pm

I picked up two more energizer golf carts today. $83 a piece, 225ah. So four batteries now, or 225ah usable at 50% for $360 and I can use my existing MPPT charger. When lithium drops in price I'll repurpose the golf cart batteries but can't justify the price for a trailer that might get used 10 nights a year.
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:27 pm

MtnDon

Just hook your PD 4400 up with a longer wire run,
it's easy to get up to 5-10% volt drop on longer run
PROBLEM SOLVED!!

Why you guys make stuff so hard ?
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby Deediggler » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:46 pm

Ok cool! How long do I need to make my wire run and in what gauge wire?

edit: Sorry to be such a noob, I promise I've read this entire forum I am just inept when it comes to electrical work.
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby MtnDon » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:34 am

OverTheTopCargoTrailer wrote:with a longer wire run,
.......



It's against my religion to introduce waste on purpose..... :lol:


I would have never thought of that....

14.4 VDC, 30 amps , #10 wire. 5% drop in 10 feet (9.92 by my calculator)
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: buying Lithium batteries price question

Postby abqlloyd » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:03 am

OverTheTopCargoTrailer wrote:MtnDon

Just hook your PD 4400 up with a longer wire run,
it's easy to get up to 5-10% volt drop on longer run
PROBLEM SOLVED!!

Why you guys make stuff so hard ?


That's quite ingenious, actually.
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