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Anything electric, AC or DC

Postby Ira » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:59 pm

Thanks Steve(s) and Micro and EVERYONE for hanging in there with me--when we should all really be watching those guys hurling their bodies down the ice at 90mph in the luge.

Yes, yes, yes--of COURSE it's possible that I screwed into a wire when attaching the box to the wall, This is ME we're talking about, remember? But I'm telling you, although I can't see through walls, I'm pretty sure I was careful when doing this.

So my first step will be to REMOVE the box, check for worn insulation/contact with the box through the punchout, and give her another shot.

Now Steve C, about my reverse polarity light:

This is simply an indicator, right? Meaning if that light is on, I'm dealing with reversed polarity, but everything should still work?
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:10 pm

Ira wrote:Now Steve C, about my reverse polarity light:

This is simply an indicator, right? Meaning if that light is on, I'm dealing with reversed polarity, but everything should still work?


Ira

On my panel which works properly, (I even reversed the polarity of the power coming in to test it.) When the polarity is reversed, the main breaker trips and won't reset and the reverse polarity indicator light is on. When power is applied properly the r-p light is off and the top light for the main breaker comes on when the main breaker is switched on. But remember, that is my panel not yours, they could be different.

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Postby Ira » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:20 pm

Okay...

Let's assume that after removing the box from the wall and checking for illegal contact, my panel behaves exactly like yours. My main breaker trips, and that second light is ON. (I didn't notice what that second light was doing today.)

Can I then safely assume the problem is with the source? And in that instance, wouldn't it be okay for me to pull the truck alongside, connect my DC-AC inverter, and test it that way?

It's only a Chevy on a lease, so if it blows up, it's no big deal.

Also, how come if there's a problem with just one of the lines, it trips the main breaker, and not the line itself? A safety thing?
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:53 pm

Ira wrote:Okay...

Let's assume that after removing the box from the wall and checking for illegal contact, my panel behaves exactly like yours. My main breaker trips, and that second light is ON. (I didn't notice what that second light was doing today.)

Can I then safely assume the problem is with the source? And in that instance, wouldn't it be okay for me to pull the truck alongside, connect my DC-AC inverter, and test it that way?

It's only a Chevy on a lease, so if it blows up, it's no big deal.

Also, how come if there's a problem with just one of the lines, it trips the main breaker, and not the line itself? A safety thing?


Dear Ira,

Really sorry, you can't assume anything when working with electricity. Well you could... might really damage you or some object. Just can't say yes to that.

If it is only reverse polarity. When it trips the main, it's not because the breaker is overloaded, it is because it is "a reverse polarity safety" More of a boat thing than anything else. Boat thru-hulls and other things like the engine are tied to the 120V ground, the 12V ground and the neutral and ground are tied together at the power source on land... so if you have a reverse polarity on a boat, the water the boat is in could be energized, not good for living things in the water, and not good for metal things on the boat.....all this is unimportant to you however.

I wouldn't plug it into the truck to test it. I would get a tester like linked below. If the voltage is reversed at the storage place, just switch the wires in your male plug going to the panel... when you leave there put it the way it is supposed to be.... I check for reverse polarity some times when we camp, at marina's when I work... I don't trust just anyone with that. 120 volt outlet testers are cheap.

Link ----> http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/120volt.html
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Postby Kevin A » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:33 am

Steve_Cox wrote:
I wouldn't plug it into the truck to test it. I would get a tester like linked below. If the voltage is reversed at the storage place, just switch the wires in your male plug going to the panel... when you leave there put it the way it is supposed to be.... I check for reverse polarity some times when we camp, at marina's when I work... I don't trust just anyone with that. 120 volt outlet testers are cheap.

Link ----> http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/120volt.html
Steve

Someone on the board, don't remember who, made up a short extension cord with the polarity reversed on the male end but had the polarity correct on the female end. They use this adaptor when the shore power polarity was reversed.
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Postby Boodro » Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:22 am

Ira , if you did run a screw thru a wire , that screw head would be touching a wire . If you test with a volt meter set on resistance you should be able to find the screw that is the issue. Just connect one lead from the meter to either the black or white , then use the other lead to touch to any screw head you suspect might be touching a wire. ( just make sure the power is dissconected when ya do this.) It should show up as a short between the wire & the screw head.be sure & test the white,black, & green ,each at a time. Thats about the only way to determine if it is a screw. Good luck!Take your time on this Ok?
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Postby Ira » Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:58 am

Boodro wrote:Good luck!Take your time on this Ok?


You got a deal. Gonna just pick up the tester this morning and check the source first.

I'll get the cheap circuit polarity tester first, check the wires for freying/contact with the punchout, remove the box from the wall, screw the outlet into box, and fire her up.

If I'm good--I'm good. It means a screw was definitely driven into a wire, right? No voltage meter necessary, and I'll rettach the box.

If I'm NOT good, and the circuit/polarity tester shows reversed polarity, (maybe the reversed polarity light on the panel is lit), therein lays (lies?) my problem--reversed polarity.

Steve, that link was really helpful--especially how it describes how systems can screwed up in the parks. So it seems like I'm gonna want to have that tester with me always, to check for this situation before I ever plug in.

But how exactly would I make a reversed adaptor to deal with this situation in the future?

And I just realized something after I posted this:

Is it possible that a screw made contact with the foil back on my INSULATON? I used a fairly long screw to attach that box.

I just edited again and nahhh...that box went into double spars at the very bottom, the spars that support the air conditioning. No insulation there.
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:13 pm

Ira wrote:
Boodro wrote:Good luck!Take your time on this Ok?


You got a deal. Gonna just pick up the tester this morning and check the source first.

I'll get the cheap circuit polarity tester first, check the wires for freying/contact with the punchout, remove the box from the wall, screw the outlet into box, and fire her up.

If I'm good--I'm good. It means a screw was definitely driven into a wire, right? No voltage meter necessary, and I'll rettach the box.

If I'm NOT good, and the circuit/polarity tester shows reversed polarity, (maybe the reversed polarity light on the panel is lit), therein lays (lies?) my problem--reversed polarity.

Steve, that link was really helpful--especially how it describes how systems can screwed up in the parks. So it seems like I'm gonna want to have that tester with me always, to check for this situation before I ever plug in.

But how exactly would I make a reversed adaptor to deal with this situation in the future?

And I just realized something after I posted this:

Is it possible that a screw made contact with the foil back on my INSULATON? I used a fairly long screw to attach that box.

I just edited again and nahhh...that box went into double spars at the very bottom, the spars that support the air conditioning. No insulation there.


Ira,

You're welcome, sorry I was sanding this morning and didn't pick up on your post right away. Guess the only question here was how to make an adapter.... It is a short extension cord that you make up. The male end
could have the neutral wire on the gold screwed terminal and the female end should be wired correctly with the hot on the gold terminal... It is a good thing to tag this short (the one I made is only 8" long or so) cord, so no one will mistake it for something other than what it is.

Good Luck,
Steve

Back to my polyurethane...
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Postby Kevin A » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:23 pm

Steve_Cox wrote:

Ira,

You're welcome, sorry I was sanding this morning and didn't pick up on your post right away. Guess the only question here was how to make an adapter.... It is a short extension cord that you make up. The male end
could have the neutral wire on the gold screwed terminal and the female end should be wired correctly with the hot on the gold terminal... It is a good thing to tag this short (the one I made is only 8" long or so) cord, so no one will mistake it for something other than what it is.

Good Luck,
Steve

Back to my polyurethane...


Steve, I didn't realize that you're the one who made the adaptor when I mentioned it in my earlier response :oops: :o :lol:
Got any photos of it?
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:34 pm

Kevin A wrote:

Steve, I didn't realize that you're the one who made the adaptor when I mentioned it in my earlier response :oops: :o :lol:
Got any photos of it?


Kev,

It wasn't me that made that post, and I was too lazy to search for who did and reference it, apologies to the original poster. I've made several of those adapters over the years and have one on my work truck, and now I have one for the TD...

Have a happy Sunday
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Postby Kevin A » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:40 pm

Steve_Cox wrote:
Kevin A wrote:

Steve, I didn't realize that you're the one who made the adaptor when I mentioned it in my earlier response :oops: :o :lol:
Got any photos of it?


Kev,

It wasn't me that made that post, and I was too lazy to search for who did and reference it, apologies to the original poster. I've made several of those adapters over the years and have one on my work truck, and now I have one for the TD...

Have a happy Sunday
Steve

Whew, I feel better :lol: :lol: :lol: I guess I'll have to make me one of those adaptors, it's a great idea.
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:40 pm

Kevin,

It was DeeBee that had posted the picture of a couple of devices he had made....

Steve

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Postby Ira » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:31 pm

Mission accomplised...kudos to Steve..thanks to others...the boatyard power source was kind of screwed up...but so was I:

1) It was cold here in South Florida when I left the house--51--but off to HD anyway to buy a tester. (And I don't care what you northerners think, it really did feel cold.)

2) Like a deer in the headlights, I stare at the selection of testers at HD, but I immediately eliminate the GFI outlet testers (after 15 minutes), because I know I don't have any GFI outlets. (Gonna put a GFI main right at the source, per Tom's suggestion.)

So I get a "standard" 3-wire tester, under 4 bucks, and it's just like a little plug with 3 lights that you stick into the outlet. There's a chart printed on the plug, and depending on your problem or NO problem, the 3 lights light or DON'T light in various configurations. You simply then match up the lights with your chart and you know what the deal is.

(Steve and others--I know you all know this, but for the benefit of others, I'm keeping this real simple.)

3) My first step is taking this $3.49 beauty to test the source, which believe it or not, is just the female end of a heavy gauge extension cord hanging from a 1967 mobile home (which has three sockets.) But it was a bitch trying to insert it in there:

For whatever reason, the round ground plug on the tester fits okay into a standard home receptacle, but it's a tiny hair too large for an extension cord. I push, and push, and push, until it's like 95% in.

Nothing on the tester lights up. So I bring it into the boatyard office, test it there in a standrad receptacle, and that office line tests okay.

Which means, I think, that my other source has an open hot--no lights lighting up means an open hot. Whatever THAT means.

So I fall back to plan B, check the box for frayed wires through the punchout, remove the box from the wall in case any screws are driving into wires, reverse the whole procedure and put those screws back in different places...

And all works fine. Plus the outlet tests perfectly with my gorgeous new little tester...which I know I'm gonna eventually lose because it's so small.

So for NOW, Steve--three more questions:

1) Why the heck do I get Open Hot on the source, but all is okay at the outlet? Am I cool here?

2) What I bought is to test a receptacle, real cheap, so what do I use to test non-outlet appliances like my lamps? Gotta buy something else, like in your link? (I just didn't see it at HD or I didn't know what I was looking at.)

3) With the panel connected to power but the main breaker OFF, that second light of the main breaker was ON. Like you said, my panel may be different than yours, so maybe my second light there is just to indicate that it's connected to power, even if the main breaker is off? My instructions for the panel tell you nada.

And try as I did, I can't now remember whether that second light was on or off when I turned the main breaker on. (It was COLD, I tell you!) As you said, YOUR second light indicates reverse polarity, and automatically trips the main. I guess I'd better call them to ask what the deal is here.

Anyway, thanks, thanks, thanks again--and answer ASAP or I won't be able to get a moment's worth of sleep tonight.

I know I won't get any sex, so I'm at least shooting for some sleep.
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Postby Steve_Cox » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:56 pm

Ira wrote:the boatyard power source was kind of screwed up...


So I get a "standard" 3-wire tester, under 4 bucks, and it's just like a little plug with 3 lights that you stick into the outlet. There's a chart printed on the plug, and depending on your problem or NO problem, the 3 lights light or DON'T light in various configurations. You simply then match up the lights with your chart and you know what the deal is.


3) My first step is taking this $3.49 beauty to test the source, which believe it or not, is just the female end of a heavy gauge extension cord hanging from a 1967 mobile home (which has three sockets.) But it was a bitch trying to insert it in there:

For whatever reason, the round ground plug on the tester fits okay into a standard home receptacle, but it's a tiny hair too large for an extension cord. I push, and push, and push, until it's like 95% in.

Nothing on the tester lights up. So I bring it into the boatyard office, test it there in a standrad receptacle, and that office line tests okay.

Which means, I think, that my other source has an open hot--no lights lighting up means an open hot. Whatever THAT means.

So I fall back to plan B, check the box for frayed wires through the punchout, remove the box from the wall in case any screws are driving into wires, reverse the whole procedure and put those screws back in different places...

And all works fine. Plus the outlet tests perfectly with my gorgeous new little tester...which I know I'm gonna eventually lose because it's so small.

So for NOW, Steve--three more questions:

1) Why the heck do I get Open Hot on the source, but all is okay at the outlet? Am I cool here?

2) What I bought is to test a receptacle, real cheap, so what do I use to test non-outlet appliances like my lamps? Gotta buy something else, like in your link? (I just didn't see it at HD or I didn't know what I was looking at.)

3) With the panel connected to power but the main breaker OFF, that second light of the main breaker was ON. Like you said, my panel may be different than yours, so maybe my second light there is just to indicate that it's connected to power, even if the main breaker is off? My instructions for the panel tell you nada.

And try as I did, I can't now remember whether that second light was on or off when I turned the main breaker on. (It was COLD, I tell you!) As you said, YOUR second light indicates reverse polarity, and automatically trips the main. I guess I'd better call them to ask what the deal is here.

Anyway, thanks, thanks, thanks again--and answer ASAP or I won't be able to get a moment's worth of sleep tonight.

I know I won't get any sex, so I'm at least shooting for some sleep.


answers to questions but no hypothesis

1. About the 3 female outlet extension cord hanging out of the 1967 mobil home. Since you tested OK farther downstream and you had trouble inserting the tester into the 3 female outlet extension cord hanging out of the 1967 mobile home. Your "No Light" test was invalid due "Ira's insertion problems". (Inuendo intended).

2. A cheap VOM (volt/ohm meter) radio shack is a source, get the cheapest they have. You will not ever need accuracy when checking ohms, some people do, most likely you won't. Shouldn't be more than $15.00.

3. Panel lights for your main breaker are no doubt thusly; 1. plugged in, breaker off, 2nd light is lit showing power is available. 2. plugged in, breaker on, 1st light is lit showing breaker is on. No indication for reverse polarity no doubt, that is where our two panels are different. Mine was originally made for a French sailboat built for the American market. Perhaps slightly different specfications.

So with all you did, moving the box, unscrewing, rescrewing, rewiring, removing the plug from the source, replacing the plug into the source. You resolved the problem.... So in the end we really don't know what was wrong, and we really don't know what fixed it. But that's the way life is sometimes. Anyway, you're right, it was about 50 degrees here too, almost too cold to go out and work on my TD. Looking at TomS' snow pictures today I agree with Tom, I too could see enough from the window.

Steve :D
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Postby Kevin A » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:01 pm

Steve_Cox wrote:Kevin,

It was DeeBee that had posted the picture of a couple of devices he had made....

Steve

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Thanks Steve,
that's the one I remembered. 8) :thumbsup:
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