Batteries

[etcret]

Hi everyone. I’ve grown tired of all the scientists, engineers, battery makers, and people that pay for the “best” or what everyone says to pay for. I’m looking for people who actually use these batteries in a small more economical camper rather than using them to power their spaceship to the moon. Someone really convince me why a several times a month or weekend camper type should foot the bill for Lithium batteries rather than AGM. I have many years using good ole fashioned car batteries to operate lights, fans, pumps, etc.. in two previous RV’s and never killed the batteries. Why should I foot the bill for Lithium now. Sure, I might use a couple of solar panels once in awhile and boondocks a little. But for the most part the most I’ll be running is a phone, couple of iPad’s and a 12volt tv and a few lights from time to time. Others plugged in. But a couple portable solar sets might be interesting at times. Based on having no problems with a regular battery in the past, I think buying an AGM Battery might not even be needed but probably better for a bit more use. I just don’t see ever seeing the benefit of the cost difference in a Lithium. I can burn through countless AGM or even regular batteries for that money. Sure, I get one is a lot lighter than the others. But, I’m talking small battery bank not a motorhome or spaceship battery system. Anyone going to try to enlighten me on why I would spend my hard earned limitless retirement income on such an expensive option. I just don’t see the bang for the buck here. What am I missing?

[John61CT]

You are absolutely right.

Pay $200 for 200+ Ah from a couple FLA GCs every 5-7 years, if you care for it properly.

If the LFP does last 20, that's still break-even and a very big risk of it dying from any number of mishaps.

But if you really want less space & weight, and are willing to invest a grand+ up front, that's OK too.

Whatever floats your boat

[RJ Howell]

I never went the GEL or AGM route, always had LA's. My dual 6v system worked great for many years and only left those behind due to weight. I have built a 4wd Camper (My Overlander) on my F150 and location/weight became very important. I have a LiFePo4 60ah I paid $265 for.

Breakdown:
My dual 6's cost me $290 plus the new waterproof case (+- $75). Rated 205 each making it a 205ah @12v's. Now, safely drawing at a max of 50% to get longevity, that makes it a 100ah 'usable amperage' system. Heavy, must be outside (gases), maintenance required.

My LiFePo4 cost me $265 shipped and is a single lightweight battery rated at 60ah. Drawing safely 90% it gives now 54ah of usable amperage. Does like cold weather, but can be inside the camper. When not in use, can be brought into the home for use as a UPS.

Ah to Ah cost wise, the dual 6v system wins out. At 100ah vs. 54ah usable, it's a no brainer. It comes down to how much amperage/wattage you will consume as to how big a system you require. I use just under an amp an hour on average or 20amps daily. I can replace that with just 1.5hr drive using my DC/DC charger.
A fellow Overlander just built a 100 ah LiFePo4 system (usable 90ah) for $320. Quite impressive! All new parts (no salvage parts), high ends pieces!

So... No... You don't have to spend $1000 to get LiFePo4. Don't fall for the hype. I am very happy I went the direction I have. Hope this helps you decide!

Safe Travels!

[RJ Howell]

I never went the GEL or AGM route, always had LA's. My dual 6v system worked great for many years and only left those behind due to weight. I have built a 4wd Camper (My Overlander) on my F150 and location/weight became very important. I have a LiFePo4 60ah I paid $265 for.

Breakdown:
My dual 6's cost me $290 plus the new waterproof case (+- $75). Rated 205 each making it a 205ah @12v's. Now, safely drawing at a max of 50% to get longevity, that makes it a 100ah 'usable amperage' system. Heavy, must be outside (gases), maintenance required.

My LiFePo4 cost me $265 shipped and is a single lightweight battery rated at 60ah. Drawing safely 90% it gives now 54ah of usable amperage. Does like cold weather, but can be inside the camper. When not in use, can be brought into the home for use as a UPS.

Ah to Ah cost wise, the dual 6v system wins out. At 100ah vs. 54ah usable, it's a no brainer. It comes down to how much amperage/wattage you will consume as to how big a system you require. I use just under an amp an hour on average or 20amps daily. I can replace that with just 1.5hr drive using my DC/DC charger.
A fellow Overlander just built a 100 ah LiFePo4 system (usable 90ah) for $320. Quite impressive! All new parts (no salvage parts), high ends pieces!

So... No... You don't have to spend $1000 to get LiFePo4. Don't fall for the hype. I am very happy I went the direction I have. Hope this helps you decide!

Safe Travels!

[John61CT]

A nit pick.

FLA is for open batteries accessible electrolyte.

AGM, GEL are both within VRLA and with other types within SLA.

All lead is "LA".

And none of the above is any indication of suitability for longevity under truly deep cycling usage, that is an orthogonal attribute.

[bdosborn]

<snip>

[Socal Tom]

I use a cheap Walmart marine deep cycle battery . Costs me about 100$, lasts about 5 or 6 years. I try and keep it above 50% charge, but as infrequently as I use it, I dont panic if I get down to 40%.

[etcret]

Thanks everyone. This forum is the best place to get really good info. Sorry, it took me so long to notice some of the information. I guess maybe I can find a way to get a notification when someone replies to me if that is even possible. I think I messed up and asked the same question again because I did not pay attention to people trying to help me the first time. I’m sorry that I did that. It was not intentional. I will definitely look into the marine battery or even smaller lithium battery. I really like the weight and discharge rate of lithium, but like a lot of people I only have so much money to use on what is basically one of my hobbies. The last for 20 years stuff really doesn’t sway me. I have listened to the same thing from people that pay thousands and thousands more for a diesel pickup that basically drive it back and forth to work only and then replace it in 5-10 years anyway. They are basically paying for a benefit they never intend to even get too. I know for a fact that the way technology changes so much now, I won’t keep the same vehicle for 20 years if it is technologically so outdated. If you are a diesel truck person or a lithium person makes no difference to me. I won’t try to convince you to buy a gas truck or lowly car battery.

[Capebuild]

I'll pipe in with my thought on this, as I did give it a fair amount of thought. True, the Lithium batteries are expensive. The main reason I've chosen to use a 100 Ah lithium is it can be drained more (draw more juice out of it) before it will need recharging (iv'e read it can be used down to 10% capacity). An AGM can be used 50% and then needs to be recharged or I suppose there's a risk of damaging the batt. I'm also planning on using a charger that, again--supposedly, charges the battery from shore hook up fairly "quickly". They are lighter and smaller. The downside for me using a lithium is not using the tow vehicle to charge it while driving.... as I've read it can put a strain on your alternator. I've also read there's ways around that strain and maybe I'll research it a bit more, but for now, not planning on car charging..... but will have 2/100 watt solar panels.
So as Bruce says... this is what works for me.

[Socal Tom]

I'll pipe in with my thought on this, as I did give it a fair amount of thought. True, the Lithium batteries are expensive. The main reason I've chosen to use a 100 Ah lithium is it can be drained more (draw more juice out of it) before it will need recharging (iv'e read it can be used down to 10% capacity). An AGM can be used 50% and then needs to be recharged or I suppose there's a risk of damaging the batt. I'm also planning on using a charger that, again--supposedly, charges the battery from shore hook up fairly "quickly". They are lighter and smaller. The downside for me using a lithium is not using the tow vehicle to charge it while driving.... as I've read it can put a strain on your alternator. I've also read there's ways around that strain and maybe I'll research it a bit more, but for now, not planning on car charging..... but will have 2/100 watt solar panels.
So as Bruce says... this is what works for me.

Just so it’s clear for others that see
This thread. You can discharge L/A batteries down below 50%, but it impacts the life of the battery. For the typical weekend warrior the occasional dip down to 20 or 25% probably won’t make a difference. Here is a good page that explains it. https://federalbatteries.com.au/news/wh ... -important
In this article going down to 30% still give 200 cycles, which would be about100 camping weekends. I get 4 to 6 per year, so it’s not the depth of discharge that will be my limiting factor. At 100$ every 5 years it doesn’t make sense for me to spend 400$ on a lipo battery.

[etcret]

SoCalTom that is pretty much my conclusion for my needs. I feel I can get 4 years or so out of a typical marine type battery, as long as I maintain it. I see no reason to spend more than $100.00. In the past I even got that long out of a normal car battery in my system the way I would normally use it. I do think I need something other than a starting battery this time. But, that is all I had in two travel trailers I owned. It was nothing more than a regular car battery for the emergency break mostly. The converter ran the stuff when plugged in. On the rare times it had no access to power, the car battery still operated the lights and fans, and water pump, which was all I really needed it to operate anyway. Besides, I have been disappointed to many times falling for all the “this will last this long” and this is so much better than this in all cases stuff. Experience has shown that that rarely is the case in real life. But, hey someone wants to spend the money for what all the salesmen and other already owners tell you to buy, that is their right too. I’m just not spending my money unless it makes sense to me.

[John61CT]

Even a lead bank can go well over a dozen years, but up-front expensive banks are only justified for those with higher Ah per day needs, and using them many cycles every month.

In that case then they work out cheaper per year, but it does take the right gear and knowledge to get that value back.

[Capebuild]

This thread has gotten me to re-think my battery decision or to at least make double sure of my decision.

For the typical weekend warrior the occasional dip down to 20 or 25% probably won’t make a difference.

For the sake of discussion, lets say your trailer will not only see the life of a "weekend warrior", but will be on the road for a month at a time, maybe even longer.... and maybe twice a year. And let's also say there are numerous week+ plus long trips. So more than weekend get aways. And given this usage if one didn't really want to have to always be concerned about whether their battery was going to hold up or be concerned about running it below the threshold (define that as you may)..... would a lithium make sense?

Thanks

John

[TimC]

I'm kind of in the same boat so to speak. My bank is six years old and short of doing a capacity test I feel it is not going to make it to season seven.

I've tossed around the idea of LiFePo4 and each time I look at it the prices are more attractive, but it is still an expensive up front cost. Then I break down my needs; a small 12v fridge, ventilation, electronics charging, a small fm radio, LED lights. The fridge and elec charging are my biggest draws. The fridge averages 14 aHr per day (probably 6 or 7 aHr per night while not producing watts but also not opening the lid) which is easily recovered the next day with 200 watts of solar.

So, when LiFePo4 becomes the standard I won't hesitate replacing my bank with them. For now they are that Shiney thing that doesn't really compute for my needs. I don't need the considerable weight savings. I'm already below 1500# tow weight and can jettison other useless things I have tucked into the TD that I never use. I also have (had) 144 aHr of capacity. 72aHr usable. It was more than I needed but I'll probably still shoot for a bank with about 100 aHr usable. 6 volt wet cells won't do for me as I designed a spot for them that requires them on their side. So AGM is my choice when I upgrade.

One drawback of LiGePo4 that I discover when reading about them is the maintenance. Top balancing, bottom balancing, matching cells, temperature cut off, remove them in winter or heat them all winter, etc. I just want the reliability of AGM that I experienced my first six years and to be able to hook them up and forget about them.

What others decide to install is so much a personal decision. I just want to go camping...

[etcret]

“What others decide to install is so much a personal decision. I just want to go camping...”. You hit the nail on the head for me TimC. This is what it basically comes down to. I just want to go camping. I’m not planning the rest of my life or my future.