Adding Shocks to a Torsion Axle...

Ask questions about Harbor Freight trailers, or questions about building your own...

Postby Tear Les » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:27 pm

Keith,

It sounds like:
A) You've got too much hitch weight (too much may be better than too little but not as good as just right :) )
B) Not enough weight after subtracting the tongue weight left for the axle
C) The tires are "squishing" (soft sidewalls on a passenger tire) rather than the torsion suspension taking the load; the stiffer trailer tires transfer more load to the axle.

I'd suggest you change the things you can and live with the results (or add those shocks) unless you're getting a dangerous sway. Or B...carry more Corona! :lol:
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Postby madjack » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:08 am

Keith, I think the Corona thing might just be the ticket to fix your problem...if the bounce is within the 3" of bump travel that most torsion axles seem to have and there is no sway, I wouldn't worry overly so...the 350 on the tongue is only bad if it overloads the tow vehicle or causes the weight on the axles to be too light...when I size an axle, I take the weight it has to carry and add 50% for the axle size...by your figures, that comes out to slightly over 1900#s, so a 2000# axle should be perfect...
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Postby asianflava » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:48 am

OH OH OH I know why it bounces so much.

It's probably because the frame is out of square! A 3/16" difference from one corner to the other will make it bounce. Any more than that and it will be like a bucking bronco. :lol:
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Postby madjack » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:52 am

asianflava wrote:OH OH OH I know why it bounces so much.

It's probably because the frame is out of square! A 3/16" difference from one corner to the other will make it bounce. Any more than that and it will be like a bucking bronco. :lol:


...and now we know :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .......................................... 8)
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Postby bledsoe3 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:31 am

asianflava wrote:OH OH OH I know why it bounces so much.

It's probably because the frame is out of square! A 3/16" difference from one corner to the other will make it bounce. Any more than that and it will be like a bucking bronco. :lol:

That's cold. Poor guys going to end up with a complex. :lol:
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Postby bobhenry » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:03 am

One fact I haven't heard it tow attitude are you nose down or nose up. either of these will affect tow quality. Dead level or only slightly nose down is needed , never nose up.

I am having the same sway problem with my motorcycle tear and I am going to try a longer tongue to dampen the sway that I am experiencing.

Good luck with your problem Bob
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Postby Keith B » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:01 am

:lol: ...and finally "someone" remembered the 3/16ths out of square.... I need to get some signs made for Minden so everyone remembers who I am... Maybe the new name for the trailer would be 3/16th???? Yup...the plan is to use it... the tow vehicles can easily handle the 350# tongue weight. After I have everything in there, coolers loaded, etc., I'm going to swing by COOP, weight it and head to Minden regardless. I've got 34psi in the tires right now and I'll slowly let it out if I needed to. I'm also bringing my little 12vt air pump, so I can play around with that. I'm taking the dutch ovens out of the galley, I think another case of Corona might add more weight back there :lol: As I said, I had no sway once I pumped the tires back up so I really don't think I have a "danger" problem.. then again, now that everything is "just so" it may pull perfect this time...plus, the insurnace premium is paid, so I'm covered; I'm taking bids at $3000 so pass the word :lol: I'm going to build a tandem axle TD, then I KNOW it wont have those problems.
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Postby angib » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:06 am

Keith,

I think it's worth noting first that dampers are added to damp out too much suspension movement - calling them shock absorbers make some people think they absorb shocks, which they don't.

It sounds like your axle is carrying a fair percentage of its design capacity, so it is possible that you've got into the range where damping might help. The rubber in torsion axles does have some built-in damping, but not a lot, and certainly much less than a pair of dampers will give.

First I suggest you carry out the traditional damper test, just like you would on an old car. In case this is too old a test for any here, it goes like this: heave down on the trailer (maybe by jumping on some part of it - but pick a strong part!) and watch what happens. It the trailer goes down, comes back up again and then stops moving, your damping is fine. If it starts the trailer bouncing or rocking three or four times (or more!), then there is insufficient damping and adding dampers would help.

If you need dampers, those Monroe kits look like they're designed to do just the job. I wouldn't be worried about a 1/2" horizontal hole through a 2"x2" tube harming the strength, as long as the hole is at mid height of the tube.

Actually finding the space to fit the dampers might be a problem. http://www.shockwarehouse.com have kindly provided a photo of the Monroe 516 kit

Image

And here's what I think it might look like with the damper attached to the bracket which is U-bolted to the axle arm:

Image

I don't know the size of the bracket, so this is all a bit of a guess. But you will definitely need the space between the frame and the wheel/tyre to mount the damper, unless you can construct a mounting bracket under the frame (though that will put the damper at a fairly ineffective angle).

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Postby Keith B » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:21 am

EXCELLENT drawing. Instead of spending the $60 on a "guess"...the kit is a "special order" and not returnable from most local dealers, I was going to weld up my own out of some 1/4" plate steel and possibly get it modified to fit "under" the rail (add a 1" spacer to the side of the hanger kit to move shock mount "under the rail" instead of on the side of the rail... whatyathink 'bout that?

1. it'd look better and 2. it'd lessen any concern of space... I will experiment after Minden and kinda "take one for the team".. who knows, might be something others desire so I'll give it a try. Thank you so much for the drawing and the advise..Excellent info as always.
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Postby angib » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:05 pm

That plan should work fine. Remember that you are trying to get the damper at about 90 degrees to the line from the axle - that's why the Monroe bracket has that kink in it. By 'about 90', I guess 60-120 is an acceptable range.

Image

Two thoughts:

- By offsetting the damper from the bracket, you will put a lot of twist into the bracket. Using 1/4" plate will probably make that OK, but less offset would be better. Making the bracket heavy is a bad thing, as it makes the suspension work worse.

- You will need to see how you can get the bracket attached to the trailing arm. Monroe's square-shape U-bolts are a neat method, but they must require some clearance at the back for the nuts. Do you have that space?

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Postby Keith B » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:34 pm

I do have enough space on each side for the u-bolts, bolt heads, ect. on the tire side and on the trailer side. The only reason for the offset was to get the shock "under" the frame rail. I kinda had thought about the twisting action this might cause but figured 1" wouldn't be to bad; and hoped the 1/4" steel would be rigid enough to handle that load. If I had to, I could use 1/2 plate, but that's getting pretty stout. As far as the "degree", the more angle or straight down I have, the closer I can get to 90 degrees, but it's mostly just going to be a cut and test fit I bet; and a lot will depend on how "short" a shock I can actually get in there.
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Postby caseydog » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:03 pm

I have always used trailer tires on my boat trailers, as recommended, but a neighbor of mine put cheap car radials on his, and the trailer was a handful to control after that.

This may have nothing to do with your problems, but then again, it might. The soft sidewalls of passenger car tires could be alowing the trailer to get a "cyclical" oscilation going.

Maybe some other members have experience with soft tires on trailers of that weight.

My TD has a 1500 lb torsion axle, and weighs in at around 850 pounds as towed. It pulls great. A lttle bounce over bumps, but it never gets a bounce "cycle" going. I run about 28 pounds of air in my "trailer" spec tires.

Now, my Tractor Supply utility trailer with leaf springs is one bouncy SOB.

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Postby brian_bp » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:07 pm

I was reading this thread, mentally assembling the information which was needed... then got to Andrew's response, which of course contains it all.

Just to reinforce the critical points that have already come up (to varying degrees):

- yes, rubber has damping, but so do leaf packs with inter-leaf friction and slipper leaves with their sliding end; no trailer without "shocks" (yes, should be "dampers") has as much damping as it would need to meet automotive standards

- if the deflection occurs mostly in the tires, it won't matter much what the suspension does; if the tires are stiff enough that the suspension does the work, you'll notice its shortcomings

- trailer tires are usually run at higher pressures, but just because they're small so they can be cheap

- a horizontal hole in the middle of the frame may look scary, but is not a big deal if it is near the centre; my 1/2" shock mount holes are in a 4" high frame rail, but are not much more than an inch from the top, so the middle of a 2" rail sounds okay to me

And a couple which I don't think have been raised:

- thinking that typical trailer suspensions have any significant design effort behind them is being quite charitable to their makers

- an alternative to the Munroe kit for Torflex axle has been custom fabricated by a Casita owner, and described in the Casita club forum; he used a pair of plates sandwiching the arm with four bolts instead of 2 u-bolts (a pointless variation in my opinion), and he braced the L-bracket to a brake backing plate mounting bolt (a nice feature, again in my opinion; he also built a tower to put the top mount above the rail top
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Postby angib » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:20 am

brian_bp wrote:he used a pair of plates sandwiching the arm with four bolts instead of 2 u-bolts (a pointless variation in my opinion), and he braced the L-bracket to a brake backing plate mounting bolt (a nice feature, again in my opinion; he also built a tower to put the top mount above the rail top

All good ideas, I would think - the advantage of using 4 bolts would be that you could get them so they sat in the four internal 'corners' of the trailing arm, so they're not going to move. Getting exactly the right size of square U-bolt to do that might be difficult.

The damper doesn't have to be 'behind' - it can be under the trailing arm and this sketch shows one arrangement that might suit. All you need is that there is a reasonable lever arm (centre of axle to damper eye, measured at right angles to the damper centreline).

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Postby Keith B » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:12 pm

Excellent thoughts fellas... I'm gonna start fabricating the mounts soon. I just got back from Minden and the trailer actually towed quite nicely, all the way up to 70MPH, however, when I hit an expansion joint at a bridge, etc. the trailer does do a lil skip.. so I figure, adding shocks, if I can, might still be a good addition. I'll start cutting some plate, which I already have so I wont have much in it but time at this point.. :)
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