fuel/remedy/liquid suspension issues?

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fuel/remedy/liquid suspension issues?

Postby stevem50 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:42 am

anybody out there have a later model trek full-susp. frame? i'm getting the runaround from my dealer and trek about my swingarm bearings.. they are telling me my swing arm bearings are glued into the frame to keep them from moving. i'm getting a monster creek sound and then all of the sudden i gotta big wiggle in the swingarm. both the dealer and trek customer service say the bearings are loctited into place to fill the gap around the bearing itself.so when you need to replace the bearing, the dealer needs to glue it into the frame.

is it me, or does this sound like a HUGE design flaw?

even if the bearing are good, you still need to replace them if the loctite breaks down. awesome, right?

is it cheaper to use glue then to machine the frame right in the first place?
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Re: fuel/remedy/liquid suspension issues?

Postby Noob » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Did they say retaining compound ?
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Postby MountainBiker » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:20 pm

It is not uncommon for bearings to be loctited in place (removable loctite, of course) but I would hope that is not the only thing that is supporting the swing arms. Might be a problem with the bearing itself if it was creaking, then got wobbly. I just checked my Specialized Epic, and the rear suspension is pretty solid. The company I work for also used to make the bushing and pins for the Rocky Mountain Full suspension and I know that system was pretty solid.

Trek is usually very good working with you to get your problems fixed, though I have heard that you may have to change the shop you are working with.
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Re: fuel/remedy/liquid suspension issues?

Postby MountainBiker » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:26 pm

stevem50 wrote:anybody out there have a later model trek full-susp. frame? i'm getting the runaround from my dealer and trek about my swingarm bearings.. they are telling me my swing arm bearings are glued into the frame to keep them from moving. i'm getting a monster creek sound and then all of the sudden i gotta big wiggle in the swingarm. both the dealer and trek customer service say the bearings are loctited into place to fill the gap around the bearing itself.so when you need to replace the bearing, the dealer needs to glue it into the frame.

is it me, or does this sound like a HUGE design flaw?

even if the bearing are good, you still need to replace them if the loctite breaks down. awesome, right?

is it cheaper to use glue then to machine the frame right in the first place?


Actually, re-reading your post, yes it does sound like a big design flaw. I work for a bearing company, and if you are using Loctite to fill a gap between the bearing and the frame, there is a problem. These should be pressed in, even if it is a light press...unless...is your bike Carbon Fibre...then I am not quite sure, but I can check with our bike expert at work.
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Postby stevem50 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:46 pm

as for the goop, it is supposed to expand to fill any gap between the bearing and the frame. whats worse, is i got this info straight from trek this time... they say to just periodicly pull the bearings and re-apply the loctite green when the play reveals it self. so what happens when i am balls out coming down a hill and the glue lets go? guess i hit pause in the middle of a drop before i land...

I am furious that i paid (a bunch) for a long travel "all-mountain" bike that has the main suspension link glued together.

i rode a specialized fsr for about 10 years, beating the living s#&t out of it every ride, no play ever, sold it to a buddy of mine when i got the remedy, and he is on his 2nd year on it, still no play. did i mention original bearings??? dont get me wrong, if i wear an item out, i will happily repair it, but to have to GLUE my bike together..not cool

TREK SUCKS! they can take their fragile pansy remedy and be on their way... never again will i say another good word about their products or the dealer i bought it from...customer lost
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Postby MountainBiker » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:22 pm

stevem50 wrote:TREK SUCKS! they can take their fragile pansy remedy and be on their way... never again will i say another good word about their products or the dealer i bought it from...customer lost


I was never sold on Trek mountainbikes which is why I went with a Specialized. Like you, I have beaten the crap out of it.

I do have a Trek roadbike though, which I like.

Dealer service makes a big difference though. My bike shop has steered me away from bikes because they know the way I ride.
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Postby stevem50 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:54 pm

seems i was dealing with a shop that wanted to make a buck, which i don't spite them for, but now that i own this pig and its broke, they act like i'm the enemy because i want them to stand behind a product they sold me. i can't even get a phone call returned..
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Postby stevem50 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:48 pm

so i got some new info for those thinking about a new trek-
i took my bike to another dealer today and heard the funniest damn thing i've heard in a while...

this guy tells me that my bike was not assembed properly so thats where my problem stems from- (duh!)(needs to be assembled by an authorized monkey for warranty registration,who trains the monkey?)

the only repair is to loctite the bearings into the frame (wow, glue it)

then when i ask him how the bearings will be aligned in the frame so they will be "square" to the swingarm, he tells me "this is an art, not an exact science"

has anybody else out there built something out of metal???... this IS an EXACT science, if you hammer it together willy-nilly its gonna break.

have you heard of "eyeballing it" to build a frame? if i suggested this to any of you when you were building a camper i would be laughed out of this forum!
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Postby JuneBug » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:07 pm

You might want to try posting this issue to the Trek forum on mtbr.com
It is 6 pm Central Time and there are 57 people cruising that particular forum. Lots of communal knowledge.
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Postby Noob » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:41 pm

JuneBug wrote:You might want to try posting this issue to the Trek forum on mtbr.com
It is 6 pm Central Time and there are 57 people cruising that particular forum. Lots of communal knowledge.


... also, might want to elaborate on this "glue". A brand name is one thing, but throw a number after it. ... its not like, they only make one thing.

BTW, not the anser you want but its the same for everything ( issues ) : http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/trouble-shooting-a-creaky-or-noisy-drive-train

IMO ... It seems like, because of the delicate nature of bikes, and how everything needs to be light AND look good ( painted/p-coat ) ... AND easly serviced with no complications for the previously mentioned... for something to be a true interference fit, something has to be a compromise... in this case its the ak47 tolarances and the use of retaining compund.
Might be a bad example, but the races in a trailer axle, that need to be hammered-in with usually a special tool, and chizled out when smoked. (I know about the oven and frezzer tric and how stuff falls-togeather that way. ) Now take that same pice of cast iron, make it out of aluminum, machine the thing down to nothing, and paint the thing... :thinking:

Dont mind the spelling mistakes just got back from a ~40mi. 40* worlds ...
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Postby stevem50 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:58 pm

just some background, i work in a bike shop, we just dont sell trek- so i cant deal with this myself...

and after having another shop inspect the issue, i was told by trek that if the play is bad enough after new bearings, that they would have the shop use 2 part epoxy to hold the bearings. and yes, this IS a quote from the manufacturer

the shop told me that if the problem cant be dealt with by using loctite green, they would try jb-weld. yes this is a quote.actually use jb-weld

all the while trek consumer relations berated me telling me how the epoxy was stronger that the frame.. and have i heard of carbon fiber..or how carbon gets formed.. i thought i asked them about repairing aluminum

if that is indeed the case, why build the frame from aluminum?just mold the whole thing from epoxy and jb-weld.

anybody who has ever spun a wrench would not think of using epoxy to shim 2 structural metal components.

if you can move the bearing around in the frame with your fingers, the frame is screwed. so, oh well, so am i.

i will never buy a trek again, but will tell every person i ever talk to again not to buy their junk as well. when it comes time they need to deal with a warranty issue, put up a bunch of roadblocks, then double-speak the customer till' he gets too frustrated and goes away. i will go away and take my future business with me. i think mike sinyard still likes his customers
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Postby Fenlason » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:49 pm

stevem50 wrote:just some background, i work in a bike shop, we just dont sell trek- so i cant deal with this myself...

and after having another shop inspect the issue, i was told by trek that if the play is bad enough after new bearings, that they would have the shop use 2 part epoxy to hold the bearings. and yes, this IS a quote from the manufacturer

the shop told me that if the problem cant be dealt with by using loctite green, they would try jb-weld. yes this is a quote.actually use jb-weld

all the while trek consumer relations berated me telling me how the epoxy was stronger that the frame.. and have i heard of carbon fiber..or how carbon gets formed.. i thought i asked them about repairing aluminum

if that is indeed the case, why build the frame from aluminum?just mold the whole thing from epoxy and jb-weld.

anybody who has ever spun a wrench would not think of using epoxy to shim 2 structural metal components.

if you can move the bearing around in the frame with your fingers, the frame is screwed. so, oh well, so am i.

i will never buy a trek again, but will tell every person i ever talk to again not to buy their junk as well. when it comes time they need to deal with a warranty issue, put up a bunch of roadblocks, then double-speak the customer till' he gets too frustrated and goes away. i will go away and take my future business with me. i think mike sinyard still likes his customers


I like Specialized bikes.. and have 5 in my current fleet. Yet at times they have been as bad. It was not my bike, but a customer's. I swore then I would never own another. If I kept to my word.. with each company I have said that about, I might not be able to purchase a bike today.
glenn

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Postby Fenlason » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:52 pm

stevem50 wrote:just some background, i work in a bike shop, we just dont sell trek- so i cant deal with this myself...

and after having another shop inspect the issue, i was told by trek that if the play is bad enough after new bearings, that they would have the shop use 2 part epoxy to hold the bearings. and yes, this IS a quote from the manufacturer

the shop told me that if the problem cant be dealt with by using loctite green, they would try jb-weld. yes this is a quote.actually use jb-weld

all the while trek consumer relations berated me telling me how the epoxy was stronger that the frame.. and have i heard of carbon fiber..or how carbon gets formed.. i thought i asked them about repairing aluminum

if that is indeed the case, why build the frame from aluminum?just mold the whole thing from epoxy and jb-weld.

anybody who has ever spun a wrench would not think of using epoxy to shim 2 structural metal components.

if you can move the bearing around in the frame with your fingers, the frame is screwed. so, oh well, so am i.

i will never buy a trek again, but will tell every person i ever talk to again not to buy their junk as well. when it comes time they need to deal with a warranty issue, put up a bunch of roadblocks, then double-speak the customer till' he gets too frustrated and goes away. i will go away and take my future business with me. i think mike sinyard still likes his customers


I do need to ask, how you ended up buying a Trek.. when you work at a shop, and don't sell Trek :thinking:
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Postby stevem50 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:58 pm

i dont buy based solely on what i sell, i bought this bike with the intention of getting " a longer travel bike that can climb ". i dont sell specialized either... but i have had great luck with specializeds since the mid 90's. way back before it was a big deal if you had a manitou bumper fork..ha-ha. i also really liked cannondale's m-800 way back when. but alas this time i went with a remedy, now it needs one. the thing that has me so pissed is that they as a company are WELL aware of this issue, and are doing everything they can to get me to give up and go away. between all the car, motorcycle, and bicycle dealers i have worked for, i have always been taught to respect your customer, as there is another dealer down the street for them to buy from.
even worse, they want me to let them put a band aid on this before they honor the warranty. if it comes back after the jb-weld, then maybe i can get a credit toward a new frame..
i dont want something for free, i just want the bike i was sold on to perform the way it should
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Postby Larry C » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:04 am

stevem50 wrote:i dont buy based solely on what i sell, i bought this bike with the intention of getting " a longer travel bike that can climb ". i dont sell specialized either... but i have had great luck with specializeds since the mid 90's. way back before it was a big deal if you had a manitou bumper fork..ha-ha. i also really liked cannondale's m-800 way back when. but alas this time i went with a remedy, now it needs one. the thing that has me so pissed is that they as a company are WELL aware of this issue, and are doing everything they can to get me to give up and go away. between all the car, motorcycle, and bicycle dealers i have worked for, i have always been taught to respect your customer, as there is another dealer down the street for them to buy from.
even worse, they want me to let them put a band aid on this before they honor the warranty. if it comes back after the jb-weld, then maybe i can get a credit toward a new frame..
i dont want something for free, i just want the bike i was sold on to perform the way it should



I see your stressed to the max. I am type A and Anal, and have always let things like this bother me. However, maybe it would be better to reverse engineer what you feel is defective. Fix it right once and for all.

I had a Klein aluminum road bike for 15 years. The bottom bracket was glued in with green Locktite. The spindle was glued to the inner race and the outer was pressed into a smooth open tube with no stops. This always scared the H out of me.

I never had a problem with it, but I decided I wanted to put new bearing in (no reason). I had a special tool machined to press out the bearings and spindle. It took a tremendous amount of effort to remove these. I installed new bearings with my press tool, and reinstalled the spindle. It's still going strong today!

I really don't have a problem with this method of using retaining grade Locktite which I used to sell. This method is widely used in industry. If you truly have play and a loose fit, have you looked into finding oversized bearings. I don't know if they exist in the size you need, but they do in some sizes.

Where I work we re-manufacture Alternators, starters, tubros, etc. Many of the housings have had spun bearings. These damaged housings are repaired by welding aluminum back into the spun or broken area and then re-machined to a press fit for new bearings. I know welding will destroy the paint and may affect the heat treat, but one of the methods used where I work is to use the aluminum rod you see in the infomercial on TV. It melts at a lower temp.
I think it even melts with a propane torch. There is also spray welding used to build material without much heat. I don't know if it's done with aluminum.

I know you want satisfaction from Trek, but that's probably not going to happen. Rather than dealing with all the stress, I think I would just fix it right myself and move on. Remember, anything can be fixed......

Larry C
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