Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:31 pm

Thanks Dawn and Bill for following along and the acknowledgement. I appreciate it. :thumbsup:
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:56 pm

I've been using the 228 lantern for light and heat while building TPCE, and it cut out a couple more times today. I didn't notice it out at first, but when I could smell the fuel I would look over and it was dead. It seemed like it was losing pressure. The first time there was a damp film of fuel all around the collar at the top of the font. After wiping up the fuel, pumping it up again, cycling the cleaner tip and relighting, I could not see any active leaks while shining my Fenix LED flashlight in, so I wondered if it was just vaporized fuel coming out of the vent after it had snuffed out. When relighting it seemed to want me to cycle the clean out needle at least once before burning bright (did it a few times just to be sure), so I’m thinking I did not get the tank as clean as I should have. But the fact that it is losing pressure makes me think that something else is wrong, too.

Any advice. My Turd runs true and steady, while the big hat cuts out occasionally. Is this just an idiosyncrasy of a 58 year old lantern, or is there something that I should do to fix it?

Thanks in advance for your support.
KC
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby wagondude » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:09 pm

Last pic shows a three piece cap. Did you replace the cap seal? Try swapping the cap from the turd and see if the problem swaps with it.
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:20 pm

Yeah, I installed a brand new seal in the cap that Randy (Wolffarmer) graciously sent me.

On the first assembly I didn't use any sealant at the valve to font half coupling, and I am pretty sure it leaked there initially. So I took it back apart and used Teflon tape. That seemed to fix it, but now I'm not so sure. I also had a leak at the valve stem, but that seemed to go away by tightening the gland nut some (I had lost a little chunk of the graphite during the rebuild, but was hopeful that there would still be enough compression to squeeze it back down... seemed to be okay before).

So it sounds like I have a leak and just need to find out where it is coming from(?).
KC
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby Wolffarmer » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:24 pm

After it shuts down open the fuel cap and see if you still have pressure. Did you turn the pump rod closed after pumping it up? I kept forgetting that and very often on a Coleman the check valve will not hold pressure, it holds it just long enough to get the fount pumped up and the seat rod/valve closed. I can't remember if you used a new generator. If not could well be a hunk of junk in it.

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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:33 pm

Thanks Randy. Yeah, I was sure to close the pump. It does seem to need more pump strokes to bring it up than the Turd does, but I figured that was just the age of the pump leather (a bit mealy around the edges).

I did unsuccessfully try to remove the pump check valve using a large screwdriver, but aborted that effort when it seemed like I was chewing up the drive slot. Hoped I had not hurt it too bad and it seemed okay, at least initially.

I did not replace the generator and do suspect junk in it.

Definitely losing pressure. Nothing under the cap when checked. Ran for maybe an hour plus at a time.
KC
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby Wolffarmer » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:41 pm

A little soapy water around the cap and where the main valve screws in to check for leaks. Coleman says to dunk the whole lantern in a bucket of water but I don't like the idea of water getting in the pump cylinder. To check for leaks there. pump it up, close the pump valve then remove the pump stem, then pour a bit of fuel, alcohol or what ever in there that is not water. Just enough so what ever power your eyes are can see if there are bubbles there.

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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:09 pm

Thanks Randy. Aye aye on the soapy titty test (another story for another time). Thanks for that. I would not have thought to remove the pump to test the check valve.

One time I had a tire with a slow leak and I couldn't find it, so I took it off, drove a mile down the road to my local boat launch, stuck the tire in the lake and found the leak right away. I understand the concept of dunking something to find the leak, but I agree with you on this one; no need to dunk the whole lantern.
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:39 pm

When I got to the shop today the 228 surprisingly still had some pressure in it.

Seemed to have plenty of fuel in it, maybe 1/3 tank, but after pumping it back up it didn't want to light. The hissing sounded a little spotty so I cycled the clean out needle a few times and pumped it some more; sounded better but still no ignition.

I have been using one of those long BBQ grill lighters, but it doesn't fit into the lighter holes in either lantern, so I used a small scrap sliver of pine as a match; still no ignition.

Well, maybe it needs more fuel? Filled the tank up, pumped it again, used the makeshift match and she lit right up and ran good for at least 3 hrs. During that time a noticed a slight flutter in the light output, so gave it a few more pumps and she seemed to respond to that. Seemed like she was back to being her "normal" (?) self.

So that brings a few questions. How far down should I expect her to run an a tank of fuel, and what is a reasonable time to run between pump ups?

By way of comparison, the 275 Turd seems to run steady for a longer period of time and seems to run the tank out further before burning out (although I did not pay particular attention to how much was left in the tank before refueling it).

BTW, I really appreciate you pros helping out the new guy with your experience and advice. :thumbsup:
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby Zollinger » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:31 pm

The small fluttering means that it has a small air leak somewhere. Mine will run for 10+ hours on a full tank and don't require pumping up more than once every few hours. How far did you go taking the lantern apart? If it passed the dunk test I would suspect the fuel and air tube vent hole might be plugged with varnish. Keep plugging away you'll figure it out sooner or later.
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:58 pm

Thanks Dawn.

I did not take the check valve out of the font. I did not take the packing out of the stem for the clean out needle crank, and I did not take the mantle tree apart (the feed pipe, vent tube and screens where the mantles tie on).

Everything else came apart and was inspected, cleaned, and reassembled. I blew through all of the passages and used carb cleaner on some of the parts where I suspected varnish.

The areas where I have some suspicions are:
- The font could have been rinsed out better after the BB treatment.
- I lost a small piece of the graphite from the main valve stem packing and did no install a new one (figured I would if it didn't compress enough to compensate).
- While removing and reinstalling the main valve, the half coupling and tin at the top of the font bent a little and I bent it back, though I don't think this created a leak or anything serious; just tweaked it back and forth at the sheet metal a bit.
- The pump leather was a bit granular or mealy at the edges. I just massaged it a bit with 3in1 oil and sort of let the loose bits slough off.

So I guess any one of these things could be causing my problems, if you want to call it that. I am of the mind to call it "character" and am still pleased as punch to be the proud owner of a piece of history.
KC
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby Zollinger » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:29 pm

KC,
IMHO the check valve is rarely the problem. As long as the little ball moves it should be OK. The leather pump is probably about done for if it's flaking little chunks of leather. Be careful the chunks don't fall off and plug up the check valve. I use neats foot oil on the pumps, it won't eat the leather like some oils.
The fuel and air tube is what hangs inside the fount. The only way to find where the leak is is to remove the pump, pressure it up and do a dunk test.
The chunk of missing graphite could be where the leak is. I have replaced one that I bought from Mike at OCP. I have also replace one with PFTE tape that I bought at the hardware store in the plumbing section.
Hey as long as it works and you can live with it that way use it. I also have a 228E that surges slightly and I just use it that way.
Dawn
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby KCStudly » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:41 pm

Thanks for the feed back.
I have access to 1/4 inch braided teflon square packing. I wonder if I could thread the main valve needle thru a piece of that as a substitute(?). It should be pliable enough to form into a round shape. :thinking:
If she continues to act up I will resort to the dunk test, but as long as she plays nice, I think I will just talk softly to her and give her sweet carresses. :lol: :lol:
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby Zollinger » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:04 pm

KCStudly wrote:I have access to 1/4 inch braided teflon square packing. I think I will just talk softly to her and give her sweet carresses.

:thinking: The 1/4 inch braided teflon square packing just might work. Hey, you got nothing to lose. You can keep talking softly to her and give her sweet carresses. Just be careful where you do that, the neighbors might see you. :lol: Me? I tell 'em (the lanterns) that if they don't want to work they can go back on the shelf i'll just go get the Turd because it always works. My neighbors already think we are weird because of all the vintage campers and vintage coleman stuff we use. :FNP
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Re: Belly Button 228E - Adding to my collection

Postby slowcowboy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:36 am

okay, dumb but still on subject.

why do they call the big hat 228E a belly button lantern?

just courous.

slow
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