Sleeper for Tacoma

...ask your questions in the appropriate forums BUT document your build here...preferably in a single thread...dates for updates, are appreciated....

Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:33 pm

Well, I am plugging along.

I am seeing now the value of having a metal frame to build on, with minimal flex, so the positions of things are not moving targets. I am discovering that not only is my plywood very flexible, it also flexes different amounts in different directions. Plus it has a noticable warp. Something I'm so used to working around with wood, but between the flexibility of the foam, and the presumable eventual rigidity of the fiberglass, it's very challenging to make sure it will actually fit. So I am now doing all my work on the truck. If I were to start over, I think I might start by fiberglassing the wood base sheet (as so many here do) to make it more rigid. Then I might be able to trust it a little more.

The other thing I would definitely do differently: I'd make wooden frames for the windows. The tolerances are fairly tight, and we will see if everything still fits when it's all glassed in. I may have to do a little cutting and grinding, but better that than end up with gaps.

Between the plywood issue and the redesign of the front end, I decided to redo the piece that holds the window to the cab. It was so frankensteined! I bought some 1/2" pink foam for this. Although it is rated a lower PSI than the blue foam, it is a much easier product to work with. The plastic cover protects the foam from minor dings and provides a nice consistent resistance when cutting with the wire. The foam seems much more finely 'grained', and it sands much more smoothly and consistently. It's been a (relative) pleasure to work with.

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I also just redid the rear panel that will support the door, also with the pink (no pics yet.) I'll need some of it for the roof also.

This is all taking longer than I fantasized ('hoped' would be too strong a word...) but I sure am getting better at working with foam. And the end (of cutting foam) is in sight...

In related news, I had a look at the lowrider2 MPCNC. That looks like a really great design, thanks for passing that on. Definitely looks more legit than the Maslow. Some folks even cutting aluminum with it, wow! And it looks competent for 2.5D and even 3d, which I would have hesitated to try with the Maslow. I don't think I could do any real 3D with a hot foam-cutting tip, but a judicious combo of foamcutter and router could really get the foam to a ready-to-assemble point from CAD drawings...

Not much happening next week as I am going camping!
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:49 pm

Okay, Progress!

To start with, I finally buckled down and finished the roof. A lot of foamprovisation there, but it basically came together. The two sides are not identical, but after sanding down they are close enough...
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Here you can get a better look at the overall shape:
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Then I constructed a specialty hotwire cutter to round the edges. It's a 22 degree angle, and runs right down the seams:
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Here's what the seams look like after cutting:
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Some went more smoothly than others....
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:?

But after sanding, it's not too bad.
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Had to dismount it to sand the roof:
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Lots of little cracks and gaps, especially in the roof. I'll be going after them with the cabosil tomorrow, but first I wanted to fill in as much as possible with foam. So there are a lot of cool looking foamosaics:
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The cab window needed to be recessed, which is why I redid that wall in pink. Fits nicely now:
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So yeah, getting perilously close to layup. I've got scrapers and 100 plastic cups. I'll make my first batch of epoxy tomorrow to do the fairing/filling.

cheers!
-e
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Okay, I just did my first layup, I put Carbon Fiber on the roof, and it seemed to go fairly well. It's no work of art, but I expected that, as a first-timer. It does need to function though.

I came back after a couple of hours, and there were all these bubbles in the CF. I am wondering what my options are. I tried pushing them down and putting new resin on. The resin did soften them up, but they still won't lay down flat.

The CF I'm using is very cheap. It's the kind with bundles in a large checkerboard weave. B-stock, so some problems, but I made them worse: I am not used to handling the stuff, and as careful as I was, I disturbed the weave in a few spots. I also did not realize how well painter's tape sticks to this stuff! I got a recommendation for putting tape on a cut before cutting, but nobody talked about getting the tape off without destroying the fabric!

But I actually don't see a relationship between the weave issues and the bubbling. Bubbles are on the scale of several inches across. Everything was laying all nice and flat when I left it at noon. They are mostly along the edges (which are very rounded) but not exclusively.

Wondering what my options are. If any require the epoxy to be green, I'll need to figure them out fast....

Chime in if you have any clues, thanks in advance!
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby wysedav » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:36 pm

I'll say a few of my random thoughts. I really like the look of the cap, I think it's coming out awesome.

Before I'd do a layup, I'd get the surface perfectly fair and probably do a seal coat. When doing Carbon I think the hard part is knowing when it's fully wetup (I don't really know b/c I never did it). I think I would roll epoxy on the surface then put the carbon on and finally roll the top coat. Lastly squeegie to flatten everything out and force the epoxy into the weave. You can run a hot air gun over the surface to help remove any small air bubbles. When you get to the corners lay the weave at a 45 to the corner it will really help getting it to lay flat.

I'm not sure why the carbon, fiberglass would do fine and save some money as well as being easier to apply.

Pictures of the bubbles would help.

David
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:17 pm

Mostly just to get some experience with it... this is all a big experiment ;)

Too late to take your suggestions with the CF, unfortunately. I'm just using it on the roof, I'll do the rest with glass.

I'm thinking I'll have to 'lance' these bubbles to get them to lay flat, and I need to do it tonight before it hardens up.

I don't know how I could have done it at all if I'd put on a surface coat first--the weave is so loose, it was really challenging getting the fabric placed, even on a non-sticky surface.
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby saywhatthat » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:29 pm

cabosil mixture is a pain to sand use microballoons
Il suffit de le faire
fast, cheap, fiberglass/ foam stressed skin panels
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73945

Build 4.5 by 8' using Trailtop fiberglass Components
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=70729
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:41 pm

yeah, I used cabosil and microballoons. It sanded fine. that part went well. All ended up nice and smooth....

But I definitely got in over my head with the layup. In retrospect, I should have done a bunch of small pieces with FG to get in the swing of things. Then bigger things in FG. THEN try the CF. But of course I never want to do that! I want to get going!!

I went back and tried to get the bubbles to flatten out, but I was mostly unsuccessful. Not sure what the issues are (beyond cosmetic) of having these delaminations in spots. It's unquestionably ugly, but the question is whether it will compromise the structural integrity of the thing.

Honestly it does not have to look nice. There are even advantages to it not. But it will need to travel down the road at 70 mph without falling apart!

I'll post pics of the layup tomorrow. Maybe someone can weigh in on how bad the tragedy is.

:oops:
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby OP827 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:57 am

I would recommend to repair all the bubbles to maintain maximum structural integrity.
You can drill holes in the bubbles and inject plain epoxy and then press it down carefully by two opposite pieces of packing tape wrapped plywood and screws. Try on a test piece and then one real bubble first and see how it works for you before continuing on rest of bubbles. Packing tape wrapped plywood and screws method worked in many places for me to correct or position certain fiberglass work.

As far as painting tape removal concerned, you cannot remove if from carbon or glass fiber w/o making some mess, you have to cut it off with scissors once the cloth is in position for lamination.

I do like your ideas of the angular shape in foam, looks good :thumbsup: .
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:57 pm

yeah, I found that out about the tape. Ended up cutting it all off. Good to know that was the correct solution.

I have been working through the bubble issue... I figured out a method using plastic wrap, clamps and wood blocks.... sounds pretty close to what you are talking about. I'll see how it goes. Might have been simpler to wrap the blocks in tape, but this acheived the same effect.

I'm thinking this kind of cf is poorly suited to hand layup. But I also messed up by starting it on a day where I had a fixed amount of time. Need lots of patience -- and the time to excercise it in!

But I think I'm going to be able to salvage the work. The top may be ugly, but it's the least visible part, at least.
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:28 pm

Alright then, I'm back.

Given that some of these projects have taken years (or even a decade?) to complete, I have to imagine that my lapse of more than a month in posting is probably typical. It was just a mad dash to get the thing ready for our big summer trip. Spoiler alert: It's working great so far!

When I left off, I was in agony about how badly my first layup went. Well, no two ways, it was a horrible job. I have gotten a lot better. But also, the CF fabric I bought was super hard to work with, and I did no kinds of warming up with easier material. That said, there was a good advantage to doing the roof first--it made it possible to put the shell in all kinds of orientations without injuring it too much.

So here is what it looked like after a treatment with phenolic micro-balloon paste:
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You can see the texture from the beekeeping roller I used. I wasn't sure how deep to press. At this point I was still trying to minimize my epoxy use. Soon after, I ordered another 1.5 gallon kit, and at that point, I stopped worrying. However, this whole process has been about the quote "if you over-build it you will never know". As a test bed, I wanted to risk under-building at every opportunity. So we'll see if the shallow holes cause issues with delamination down the road.

Here's the first round of CF laid out. I didn't yet realize the blue tape would have to be cut off. That created some problems... I needed to use some thin strips to fill the gaps....
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But the main problem was inexperience with a very challenging material. Here are some of the problem areas afterwards:
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But, on the theory that I'd figure out how to repair my bad work, I ploughed ahead, to get some more basic experience with the process...
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:43 pm

So now it was time to lay fiberglass, which I hoped would be easier. From my experience getting everything sticky with epoxy, I first cleaned up and organized my work area:
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From left to right:
Epoxy,
Fresh Chip Brush
Clean Squeegees
Stir sticks
Measuring Cup (Marked using water in a nesting cup and a digital scale), taped down, to discourage me from pouring epoxy directly into the measuring cup! I did that three times. By the third time, it was second nature to put a cup inside the measuring cup
Fresh epoxy cups
Rags
Bubble popping Roller. Probably should have used this more, I kind of forgot about it mostly. I did end up with a few bubbles, but mostly the squeegee and chip brush did the job.
Dirty Squeegees to clean later
Knives, Markers, etc.
Moving Plastic wrap,
Measuring Tape.

Boy things get easier when you organize a bit. A lesson I will obviously keep learning until I die.

On to fiberglassing. First up the bottom. My thinking was to do at least part the sides while attached to the truck, to assure a good fit. In retrospect, this made it a ton harder, and I don't think it would have mattered. The structure is very sturdy, but not THAT inflexible. The FG I used is 7.5 oz. Once again, I think that's kind of a practical minimum. However, so far, the only injuries it has sustained occured while working on it! Where I manhandled it over screws that were hiding in the garage carpeting, I got little puncture wounds.... But nothing has scarred it on the road so far....
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:06 pm

When I did the bottom, I brought the sides around to the bottoms of all the windows:
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Since the top layup extended (mostly!) to the tops of the windows, I was left with a series of 'pillars':
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The front two pillars were to be CF. At this point, knowing that the CF is not very flexible, and easily gets lumpy, I decided to try using moving plastic to squish it down:
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Some places I got it pretty smooth:
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Other places it was pretty wrinkled...
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For the most part, it came out pretty well. Much better than the first CF application.
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After putting it on the truck once more, I realized my 7.5 oz FG was not going to provide a sturdy enough bed platform, so I glassed on a piece of 2x2. I think I could add a layer of CF, and remove this to get the clearance back under the shelf. There are an annoying number of camping items that now won't fit under the platform!
:roll:
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The next phase is unfortunately undocumented. But here's what I did. I sanded the whole exterior.... Where the original CF top was really lumpy, and not making contact with the foam at all, I ended up pretty much sanding it off entirely. No pics, because of the ridiculous amount of PPE I was using! After that, I got out of the habit of taking pictures for a while, doh!

Then I bought some 9 oz 6" FG tape locally and taped over the spots where I had sanded through the CF. So now the roof is MOSTLY CF. If there's a hailstorm, some parts of the roof may do better than others. Which ones?? Who knows?? More data points! :thumbsup:

Finally I fiberglassed the interior. No pics of that either. It's still completely unfinished, but it will stay that way for a while.

Here's what it looked like before fairing:
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Unfortunately, you can't see the roof repair work in these pics.

On to fairing...
Last edited by woodslanding on Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:47 pm

I ran out of cheap phenolic microballoons from Raka, doing the interior, and time was running out! So I bought the expensive west systems version. I got the ultra-light, not because it's lighter, but because it's supposed to be easier to sand. Well worth the extra $$. So much easier to work with.

I hit on the idea of tinting different applications, so I could differentiate different rounds. So I got a fairly colorful look. I should have done a third round, but there was such a time crunch! Here's what it looked like after two rounds of fairing and sanding:
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Since I was in such a hurry to get this ready for camping, I figured I'd put on primer, and then it would be obvious which spots I missed. Boy, it sure was, and there were a lot more than I thought. So I'll need to do another extensive round of filling and sanding before I can paint.

Which brings up my first question for the next round of work:

Do I need to sand down the primer before putting on more filler? Or is there a different filler I should use OVER primer? If it matters, the primer I used was this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017KKKDO/
and this is the paint I plan to use:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017KOMLU/
it got the best reviews for a one-part marine paint in a long-term stress test...

Anyway, back to the build. Here's what it lookes like with the primer. Not too bad!
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And then time to install the windows. Because I was using the inner rings in reversed orientation, because my walls were so much thicker than the original topper they came from, I had to re-thread all the attachment points. Basically, a hex screw is just forced into the space between two aluminum rails, and once it grips, it drills itself. Yikes that was hard work with the handheld nut driver. I was afraid to use the drill for fear of stripping the holes. Anyway, a ton of work later, I had one window in. Only two more to go (and the door!)
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At that point, there was such a push, that I stopped taking pictures. There were challenges with mounting the rear door, but I figured them out. I put an electric tailgate lock on the truck, so I re-configured the latches. Instead of the inner latch bars locking to the side against the shell walls, they go down to lock against the tailgaite. I covered them with hard plastic tubing, to minimize rubbing of the tailgate paint. We'll see how that works. I may go back to the original design. The thinking was that you could unlock the tailgate and open everything up without having to lock and unlock the liftgate. But that doesn't really work....

Anyway, it was time for a shakedown cruise. I took the kids up for a quick overnight, on a road I couldn't navigate with our old highlander. The truck had no problem with it at all, though.
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Found a nice campsite around dark. With minimal gear, we were ready to sack out in minutes. The kids slept in the bed of the truck and I slept on the platform. You can see that the interior is still completely unfinished:
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You can't see my son at all, because he wriggles so far down into his bag. I don't know how he breathes, but he's awakened every morning so far!
;)

Basically it was a success. No funny vibrations at highway speeds, and nothing came loose over the super gnarly 4wd road!
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:23 pm

So why was I building this again?? Oh yeah, TO CAMP!

First big trip. Up first, Paradise Divide outside crested butte. Camped there about 15 years ago. A lot more popular now, but there was only one other camper there on a Monday night, and nobody else on Tuesday. A lot of daytrippers, though:
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The tent is for me and the kids, and my wife sleeps on the cushy mattress in the sleeper. We covered the whole back end with a mosquito net, and that worked nicely to allow a lot of ventilation. The back did get a bit wet when it rained, but the bedliner has deep grooves that can take a lot of water before getting anything else wet. Nice alpenglow the second night:
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The plan is two nights camping, one night with a shower. First shower was Cathedral Rock Ranch outside lake city. Nice rustic cabins, with everything you need (shower, fullsize fridge with freezer for refreezing your icepaks) and nothing you don't (like paint over the chipboard on the walls!) Nice folks, lovely views, pond for the kids. We had nice weather, so everything had a chance to dry out...
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Next up, we decided to try half of the alpine loop, over Cinnamon pass. Conclusion: Lovely views, but way more bad road than we feel like doing in a day. It was about five hours of driving. I think one hour on a bad road is worth it to get to a nice remote campsite, but we won't be doing any long passes like this again anytime soon.

Picked wild strawberries up at American Basin, that was very fun! Here's the family full of strawberries heading back to the truck for more punishment. The kids didn't mind the rough ride at all, though. It was like an amusement park ride to them!
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Here's the truck up at Cinnamon Pass:
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Very pretty, but too much driving yet to do before camp, so couldn't spend much time enjoying it!
:(

Next was three nights at Cunningham Gulch, San Juans. It's almost like a campground there, including the world's sturdiest pit toilet. But we had a site at the end, and except for cars up and down the road, it was pretty quiet. We hiked up to the lovely Highland Mary Lakes. Lots of pics of those on the web, so I won't post mine. No pics of the campsite, though. I swear I took some, but maybe I dreamed it?

Then a night at Weisbaden Hotel and Hot Springs in Ouray. Not really cold enough for hot springs, but they have a small swimming pool at 103 degrees, which would be awesome in cooler weather.

Last campsite was on grand mesa. Not the best spot, but it was getting late, and it was only one night. Still quite nice, and we all gorged ourselves on wild rasperries the next morning.
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So the first trip was a success! The sleeper held up just fine. We averaged over 16 mpg on the trip, which given how much driving we did at 5 mph seems pretty good. It was hard fitting everything in for a 10 day trip. We didn't want to stop to wash clothes, since the kids aren't vaccinated yet, so we had three duffel bags of clothes, two coolers and two food boxes. Oh, and a guitar! We were full up. After the lunch stop after the last night of camping, I FINALLY figured out a good way to pack everything:
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So that's it so far. I plan to keep it in its current half-finished state through the fall. Then this winter, I'll take the windows and door off, finish the interior, finish the fairing, and get it properly painted. Maybe someone with a booth and a sprayer....

Thanks all for your encouragement and support! I'll probably be back here to post some trip views, and/or when I get back to working on it.

cheers,
-eric
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Re: Sleeper for Tacoma

Postby woodslanding » Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:58 am

Time for an update, I guess.

I've been camping in this for a couple of years, and it's held up really well.
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I know that I underbuilt by some folks' standards, by using cheap XPS and a single layer of 7.5 oz. FG, but the strength is as much in the structure as the materials... you could cut this to pieces with a serrated knife, but it is super-solid and really strong. No vibrations at speed, and no signs of wear. This winter I will do some finish work, paint it, and properly seal the windows (which leaked a couple of times in really heavy rain). My theory was 'if you overbuild it, you will never know'. Well, I guess I still underbuilt it, because it seems indestructible.

I built a kitchen drawer for it, since I was envious of the galleys in the trailer builds, and that has worked out very well. I got a little rechargable water pump for $20, and it really works well. Battery lasts all season. Also have a 5lb propane tank, and that lasts all season too.
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There is a propane stove under the food boxes, you can see it here. I also got a tent thingee from amazon for $60 which is designed for SUVs, but works pretty well here.... to the left of the stove you can see where there is a large pull-out cutting board. It's under the dish drainer, where it collects the drips. Works out great.
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I got a digital rear-view mirror for $80, and it allows me to pack a lot more in the back. My wife has princess-and-the-pea syndrome, so she sleeps on 6 inches of padding in the truck when the whole family goes, and I get the tent with the kids. We added 2 more inches since this photo was taken, and now she sleeps as well as she does at home! When she doesn't come along, the two kids and I can all sleep inside the camper.
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I'm going to devote the winter to designing the next generation camper. I want to get cushy indoor sleeping for all four of us, as well as an indoor-outdoor kitchen and composting toilet.... I'm going to do some minimal 1x2 framing next time, mostly just so I can screw some things to the walls, and I may invest in better foam, although I'm not at all sure that's necessary. I'll post some designs here as I get closer....
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