A more durable Foamie?

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby KCStudly » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:29 am

Humidity? In cold climate? Turkey frier filled with water set on "kill". Not only will the boiling water create plenty of moisture (and heat) but the propane exhaust puts out quite a lot of moisture, too. Steam bath anyone? :lol:
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby GPW » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:02 pm

Combination Teardrop camper and Sauna during the off season ... That’s sounds interesting ... Multidropping .... :lol:
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:11 pm

GPW wrote:And just saying , on the FoamStream , the areas where the 18oz. canvas was doubled ... it was Very Difficult to cut through even with a razor sharp utility knife ... not much that harms that except those darn fire ants who have chewed tiny holes through all that to spend the winter in the FS .... grrrrr !!!!


I'm thinking along the lines of heavier multiple layers of PMF. I want to see if the PMF can be made more puncture resistant than luan skins with similar weight. I'm doing 10oz at the moment since it's what I have, probably 3 layers.

Fire ants, yikes! Can you fumigate to get rid of them?
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:16 pm

linuxmanxxx wrote:Misters for patios and summer. Out West here can find a swamp cooler and use it


Based on a comment from a guy who was telling his Styrospray horror stories, it foiled his attempts to rectify the humidity issue, though he didn't provide details on how he tried to solve it.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby GPW » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:19 pm

Ruff , how much puncture resistance do you need ? ... If you need that much I have an All STEEL cargo trailer for you ... BULLETPROOF ... ;)
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby dancam » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:10 pm

Why do you still want to go with foam? Its time consuming. Stick frame and plywood, paint it. is quick.
With multiple layers of pmf whats your plan for adhering the second and third layers of canvas?
I think i used 80 pounds of paint on my not very big pmf trailer...


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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:35 pm

dancam wrote:Why do you still want to go with foam? Its time consuming. Stick frame and plywood, paint it. is quick.
With multiple layers of pmf whats your plan for adhering the second and third layers of canvas?


Foam is for insulation, and the core of a light and sturdy sandwich construction.

Multiple layers of PMF seems easy enough, each layer is added like the first. Glue is spread with a notched trowel, canvas placed and rolled out, and allowed to dry a few hours. Glued added then to saturate the canvas. Wait a few more hours. Then repeat with the next layer. It *is* time consuming. And even with 3 layers of 10oz cloth it isn't as puncture resistant as 2.7mm luan. Or as stiff in bending, in fact the stiffness isn't close. I'm going to let the PMF dry a few more days and see if that helps. Lack of stiffness isn't necessarily bad, it can even be a good feature (bend instead of break). But it wouldn't be ideal for a floor panel or if you wanted to crawl around on the roof.

I had some old epoxy and cloth, so I decided to put a layer of that on the luan. Huge improvement in penetration resistance! I couldn't get the screwdriver to crack or penetrate the surface no matter how hard I slammed it. That was a single layer of 5.5oz cloth too so not a lot of weight added.

Just for fun I made a sample of the foam with 3 layers of epoxy and cloth and that was very good also, though not quite as good as the luan+1 layer.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby dancam » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:49 pm

Ok, you already did the 3 layers of canvass? The second layer has a tendancy to bubble if the glue in the first layer isnt dry enough. Any issues with that or was a couple hours enough?

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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:32 am

Few hours, morning-evening-morning etc. Didn't notice any bubbling. The fiberglass roller I use might help with that. The only time I've seen bubbling with PMF was a couple weeks ago when I put a sample under a lamp (to heat it) before it was dry. The TB2 is full strength BTW.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:36 pm

I have made a little progress. It takes a good while (week or more?) for the TB2 to fully cure, and it needs to be fully cured for "poking a hole" tests. I've discovered that epoxy also takes several days to fully cure.

I'm testing how hard it is to force (strike) a medium size flat head screwdriver through the skin. It's totally qualitative, but I do try all the samples several times to get a good feel for it. All skins are over 1" 15 psi XPS. Note that the weights below for glued on skins (luan) include the glue weight, which in this case is PLP at ~.12 lb/sq ft.

Sample, Skin weight (lb/sq ft), Penetration resistance WAG (scale 1-10)

PMF 10oz 1 layer, .15, 1
Laun 2.7mm, .50, 2
PMF 10oz 3 layer, .45, 3
Luan 2.7+ 6oz FG, .62, 4
6oz FG 3 layer, .36, 6

PMF seems to be better than plywood on an equivalent weight basis, with the added advantage of not rotting. And if 1 layer of 10oz PMF is "good enough" there isn't any plywood you can buy that is near the weight. Multiple layers of PMF are quite time consuming though, at least the way I did it. I'd use a trowel to spread a layer of TB2 on, place the canvas and roll it down with a FG roller, let it dry for 8-12 hours, apply a layer of TB2 spread with a flat blade, let that dry 8-12 hrs, repeat. If you want a stronger PMF layer it's easier to use heavier canvas.

I was surprised by how much the TB2 evaporated. For the 3 layers I used ~.5 lb/sq ft. 3 layers of 10 oz cloth should weigh ~.21 lb/sq ft, so I ended up with ~.24 lb/sq ft dried TB2, meaning about half of it evaporated. Does this sound about right?

I initially didn't think the FG alone was that great, I would have given it a 3 after 1 day of cure, but it eventually got very hard. So hard the screw driver doesn't go through it at all, just chips.

Some other pros and cons:

Toxicity: PMF is very pleasant to work with; non toxic and water soluble. Plywood is ok, but the PLP isn't something you want to get on you. Epoxy and glass are worse. A respirator, gloves, and full suit are recommended, though many don't bother and manage to survive. :?

Water resistance:
PMF and fiberglass should both be very good in this respect. Plywood is a potential disaster. See this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49207 :(

Self healing:
PMF reportedly will self heal dents if the temperature (sun) is warm enough to soften the glue, and I guess the foam? :thinking: I don't have any experience with it so I'll others will have to expound on this feature.

Build temperature:
PLP will cure fine at below freezing temperatures, which means you can build in an unheated garage in the winter. If you want. TB2 and most epoxies like it to be >50F though you can get special epoxy that will cure at lower temperatures.

Strength/stiffness: I haven't tested this yet, but one thing I know is that it's easy to make foam sandwich panels strong and stiff enough for a small trailer, so the lightest above is fine. It might even be better if the panels are not so stiff in an impact situation, so they give rather than break.

Build time/ease: Kinda guessing here, but for a novice, plywood is probably easiest... but then you have to make sure water doesn't get to it. PMF would be in the running if you are only doing a single layer. Fiberglass isn't bad if you aren't picky about finish, but can be a lot of time, work, mess (sanding and sanding) if you are.


Cost:

PMF: Since half the TB2 evaporates it isn't as cheap as I originally thought. Gallons are ~$19 with tax or ~$2.24/lb. According to my calculations that's ~.16 lb/layer (10oz wet) or $.36/sq ft. 10oz canvas can be had for $2/sq yd or $.22/sq ft, for a total of $.58/ sq ft. That's for a single 10oz layer.
Plywood: 28oz of PLP at $7.50 each works out to $4.29/lb. I used ~.12 lb/sq ft which comes to $.51/sq ft. The HD 2.7mm laun sheets are $11 or $.34/sq ft, for $.85/sq ft. If you splurge for marine ply, 3mm Okoume will run ~$50/sheet shipped, or $1.56/ sq ft, glued would be $2.07/sq ft. If you want ply I'd definitely recommend marine ply. And even then I don't think it's a good choice for the outer skin unless you use a tough seamless coating on top.
Fiberglass: US composites sells epoxy for ~$55/gal ($5.80/lb) shipped and according to reports it isn't terrible. I'm looking at that combined with 1708 cloth (17oz biax 3/4 mat) I've found for $5/sq yd. Weight and strength should be comparable to the 3 layers of 6oz FG listed above. Cost would be $1.70/sq ft total.

Other? GPW recently mentioned DuraSip skins as a potential alternative: http://www.durasip.com/index.html The thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=67805 Looks promising, especially if you can get 8ft wide sheets. It's like a fiberglass sheet that you glue on, so smooth seamless runs should be possible, won't rot, etc.
Filon like commercial fiberglass skin materials are another option. I've seen generic versions for ~$3/sq ft. http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/product ... ct_id=2122 Plus shipping, plus glue. I think these have a gelcoat layer which would mean no additional UV coating would be needed.
Many use aluminum skins too, but I know nothing about them.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby KCStudly » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:07 pm

You may want to do a little more research on mat and epoxy. It's my understanding that mat is bound with something that makes it only compatible with polyester and vinylester resins, and specifically not epoxy.

Epoxy works with woven or stranded cloth, and fillers that are specifically intended for epoxy, so always check with your supplier and be sure to tell them that you are using epoxy resin.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:39 pm

KCStudly wrote:You may want to do a little more research on mat and epoxy. It's my understanding that mat is bound with something that makes it only compatible with polyester and vinylester resins, and specifically not epoxy.


That's true and I did check on that. The mat on 1708 is stitched on (no binder) and will work with epoxy. It can be bought without mat (called 1700 biax) but it costs more.
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby GPW » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:34 am

Re: Titebond glue ... since it’s a water based solvent , the water evaporates , not the glue ... as the water goes away, so goes a lot of the weight , and it makes the glue “dry” ...

We’re experimenting now with re-painting over TB2 ... We had some Gorilla tape in certain areas , and when we pull the tape off , the paint comes off down to the T2 ( Gripper and all) :frightened: As we’re now adding some “patches” where ants chewed their way in , maybe sanding the exposed TB2 will help the paint adhere better ... It wasn’t a problem till we used the Extremely Sticky Gorilla Tape , masking tape had no effect ... :roll:

And just a hint , if you want to keep your rolls of tape in good condition , just store them in a zip lock freezer bag ... tape rolls stay clean on the edges and don’t dry out ... Tape has gotten pretty pricy ... that’s why the concern ...
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby rruff » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:14 pm

GPW wrote:We’re experimenting now with re-painting over TB2 ... We had some Gorilla tape in certain areas , and when we pull the tape off , the paint comes off down to the T2 ( Gripper and all) :frightened: As we’re now adding some “patches” where ants chewed their way in , maybe sanding the exposed TB2 will help the paint adhere better ... It wasn’t a problem till we used the Extremely Sticky Gorilla Tape , masking tape had no effect ... :roll:


I was wondering about that. In my experimenting, Gripper sticks to TB2 fairly well, compared to PLP anyway. But I've read that it's best to fill the canvas weave with Gripper (or some other paint). Just use TB2 to stick to the canvas to foam.

I'm sure this has been tried. How does it come out if you just use Gripper to stick canvas to foam and no TB2 at all?
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Re: A more durable Foamie?

Postby ghcoe » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:50 pm

rruff wrote:I'm testing how hard it is to force (strike) a medium size flat head screwdriver through the skin. It's totally qualitative, but I do try all the samples several times to get a good feel for it. All skins are over 1" 15 psi XPS. Note that the weights below for glued on skins (luan) include the glue weight, which in this case is PLP at ~.12 lb/sq ft.

Sample, Skin weight (lb/sq ft), Penetration resistance WAG (scale 1-10)

PMF 10oz 1 layer, .15, 1
Laun 2.7mm, .50, 2
PMF 10oz 3 layer, .45, 3
Luan 2.7+ 6oz FG, .62, 4
6oz FG 3 layer, .36, 6


Now you just need to take a piece of unsupported aluminum siding used in the RV industry and jab a screwdriver into it....... Just for a comparison. :thumbsup:
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