Tucson tortoise: Edit for photos

...ask your questions in the appropriate forums BUT document your build here...preferably in a single thread...dates for updates, are appreciated....

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:56 am

Thanks for the "heads up" KC, I hadn't seen this page from their site. I'm not too familiar with their stuff yet, too many things to look at and I get bogged down with the information-overload. I'll give them a call to see what they say.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:15 pm

No call back yet from McM, still waiting to hear their answer about the ball sockets.

Here's some work from today. Cut out the galley hatch ribs, did one as a pattern which was sanded, smooth and curved properly. Used the pattern, some dry wall screws & the router with a flush-cut bit. Did the rough cut first with a saber saw, then fastened and cut exact with the router. Here they are stacked & clamped in place on the side panels. Both side frames are now whittled out and properly skeletonized (in time for Halloween). There's a big pile of scrap from all of this cutting which will go in the trash. I'll save a few pieces in case I need backing blocks for lights, hardware, etc, but most of the weight is gone now!

159877

Located & cut the electrical inlet for shore power & the battery vent. Thinking I will have the battery vent on the passenger side & the shore power inlet on the driver's side. The shore power inlet needs a drain in the side somehow, to function properly, hmmmm. :thinking: It's on the lower portion drilled from the inside, so I need to think about a drain now.

159881
159880

Glued in the chunk I needed, to locate a block for the upper side panel pivot point for the hatch (mistake on the first panel, fixed for the second one). This was removed because I hadn't done a layout for the gas strut when I did the first side. The side frame attachment point is close to the top near the inside of the hatch, but outside of the upper cabinet. The hatch pivot attachment will be located down near the counter, about an inch above the counter and about an inch in from the inside skin, more or less. I'm planning on having about 6'3" of headroom at the back edge of the hatch when it's open. More than enough for me or my wife, so no worries there.

159882
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby Sheddie » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:00 am

Hi Tim,
correct me please if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you are looking at fitting the gas struts for your hatch with the mounting point on the hatch at bench height, and the mount on the wall at the top near where the hinge point will be. If it is how I think, it wont work.
noseoil hatch struts.jpg
noseoil hatch struts.jpg (61.21 KiB) Viewed 2760 times

The example with the cross is the impression I got. as I said I may have got it wrong :? I can be easily confused.
In the situation that I have drawn, the example with the cross, when the hatch is up the force from the weight of the hatch is pushing sideways, so the strut will have little effect on holding the hatch up. The example with the tick, the force is directly on the end of the strut. this may mean mounting the strut further down the wall.
:beer: Frank
PS. don't hesitate in telling me if I am barking up the wrong tree. :oops:
User avatar
Sheddie
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1499
Images: 1129
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:26 pm
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
Top

Hatch geometry, or X vs Tick

Postby noseoil » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:19 am

Hi Frank, you have it right in your drawings. The one with the "X" is exactly correct and the way I will do the mount for the cylinder. Here are a couple of pictures to illustrate what I will do. Here's the hatch in the open position, with the cylinder fully extended.
159877

Here's a closer detail of how it will look, just a WAG at the exact location, because the side panel with the actual layout is on the bottom for now.
159879

With the hatch in the closed position, this is the relationship of the points.
159878

I'm not sure I follow your thinking about a sideways load (lateral forces?) on the strut itself. With the strut in place and firmly attached at the pivot points, I don't think there can be any side loading, as long as I locate the axis of the strut in a single plane. Even if I "miss" by 1/4" or so, the side loads shouldn't come into play. Also, I'm using my "X" instead of the "tick" because of the loading on the struts. With the "tick" design, there is a huge increase in the loading of the struts and the corresponding weight they must carry. The closer to the hinge the attachment point is located for a strut, the greater the force necessary to hold the hatch in the open position. The least amount of load would be at the bottom of the hatch, but this isn't practical due to the open length necessary for the strut and amount of travel it would take.

For example (and this is just the theory, not hard science, which is beyond my abilities) let's look at a sample hatch. The hatch weighs 100#. Measured at the open position and with the support on a scale directly beneath to "load" (the back (lower) edge in the middle of the open hatch's edge) the scale reads 50#, about half the actual weight, because the hinge is holding 50# and the scale is holding 50# (on the opposite end). About half way between the hinge & the opened edge, the load would be twice what the weight is on the scale, due to the increase from leverage, or about 100# (this would be my example and your "X" diagram). If that point on the hatch is moved 1/2 the distance closer to the hinge, the load doubles again, let's say to 200#. This is why I'm locating things where I am. If it doesn't work, I'll let you know, but it will be a while until I get to that point in the build. Still too many things to do for now.

If there are any engineers out there who can explain my mistaken theory in simple terms, I would appreciate it. If I'm making a mistake here in logic, planning or execution, please let me know now..... tim
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby KCStudly » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:39 am

So what you are forgetting is that gravity is acting on the center of gravity of the hatch, which is reacting as a moment around the hinge. Taken to the extreme, if the hatch were hanging straight down and you put your strut directly in line with the hinge and end of the hatch, the strut would only be trying to stretch the hatch and would do nothing to try to lift it.

In the X version that's close to what you have (the strut is pushing from close to the hinge thru a point that is close to the CG of the hatch), and the highest possible load from gravity is on the hatch (it is neither hanging from, nor balanced above the hinge).

Whereas in Sheddie's Check version, the line of force from the strut is acting much more directly toward holding the hatch up. Yes the loads are higher, because the strut is actually doing some work and is not just along for the ride.

What you have said about the ratios of the mounting points versus distance from the hinge is true; the closer to the hinge the strut is mounted the higher the loads and leverage will be, but the fix for this is a longer strut with more stroke length. The work still needs to happen, and the closer you can make the line of force to the load, the easier it will be.

Take another look.
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
TnTTT ORIGINAL 200A LANTERN CLUB = "The 200A Gang"
Green Lantern Corpsmen
User avatar
KCStudly
Donating Member
 
Posts: 9333
Images: 8119
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: Southeastern CT, USA
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:20 am

"So what you are forgetting is that gravity is acting on the center of gravity of the hatch, which is reacting as a moment around the hinge. Taken to the extreme, if the hatch were hanging straight down and you put your strut directly in line with the hinge and end of the hatch, the strut would only be trying to stretch the hatch and would do nothing to try to lift it."

"In the X version that's close to what you have (the strut is pushing from close to the hinge thru a point that is close to the CG of the hatch), and the highest possible load from gravity is on the hatch (it is neither hanging from, nor balanced above the hinge)."

I guess I'm not understanding what this says at all. :? Gravity holds the hatch shut, I think I got that (it's the same thing that holds dry-wall mud on the ceiling, right?). If the struts are out of line (below the axis of the imaginary center-line between the hinge & the center-line of the center of gravity of the hatch), they will do the same thing, help to hold the hatch shut if a latch fails, not a bad thing for me really. They act to push the hatch into the shut position by expanding past center. It's like a past-center camming action that has the strut "pushing" the hatch closed. Once the pivot point on the hatch passes this imaginary center line, the springs begin lifting the hatch and then push it open and hold it there.

If what you're both saying is that at rest, the struts are helping to keep the hatch shut, then I agree (still not sure what's going to happen, exactly). If you're saying that they won't hold the hatch in the "up" position, I need to quit my job & retire right now!

I've edited this post for content, I didn't mean to come across as an arrogant ?rick, which is how I read it when I came back to it. KC, your input is greatly appreciated & valued. :beer: tim
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:42 pm

A little more work today on the side frames. Here's the back side of a marker light showing the hole, chase & "conduit" for the small wires which supply voltage for the LEDs. A 20 mm hole saw works just right for the small markers I'll use. It's just some plastic tubing from Home Delay in the plumbing department for conduit for these wires.

159883

I did the notch in the side frame for the hatch relief cut at the galley. There's a 9/16" drop to get things in place below the hatch lid's edge (gap, aluminum track, gasket, etc). Also did the 1 5/8" rabbet cut for the headliner & spars along the outside of both panels (1 1/2" X 3/4" poplar spars, 1/8" Baltic birch panels inside & out).

159884
159885

All in all it was a productive weekend with something good to show for it. As usual, thanks for looking. Back to work tomorrow. Two day weekends are too short to get a lot done....
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby KCStudly » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:31 pm

Thanks for your patience with me trying to explain the strut thing. :thumbsup: PM sent trying to explain it better. Please feel free to post it here, if you want, but I tend to be long winded, so that is your call.

:thumbsup:
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
TnTTT ORIGINAL 200A LANTERN CLUB = "The 200A Gang"
Green Lantern Corpsmen
User avatar
KCStudly
Donating Member
 
Posts: 9333
Images: 8119
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: Southeastern CT, USA
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:57 pm

I'm posting this to show what a great amount of knowledge there is on the site, the patience KC is showing me with his reply, & the effort he is making to help me understand my build, and keeping me from making a mistake. I'm still trying to digest what he has said about my strut mounts & locations....

"Thanks for your patience with me trying to explain why Sheddie has made a good point about hatch strut placement.

You are correct about the over toggle action being helpful in keeping the hatch closed, but that’s not what Sheddie and I are on about.

Let me try to explain it again. There are two things going on. First is the moment reaction around the hinge. For simplicity, let’s assume the hatch is a flat panel 60 inches long and it sticking straight out the back from the hinge in a horizontal position (to the left when viewed from the side). Let’s also assume that the strut is located 1/3 out from the hinge at 20 inches and is pushing straight up. So if the hatch weighs 50 lbs and it's built uniformly (i.e. the weight is distributed equally), then the reactions are fairly easy to calculate. Since the hatch is not moving, the sum of the moments (torque) about a point (let’s use the hinge) are zero.

So the weight of the hatch (50 lbs) is working down at its CG (30 inches away from the hinge). This is 1500 inch-lbs in the counter clockwise direction (50 x 30 = 1500). The strut is holding up equally at 20 inches, so the reaction at the strut must be 75 lbs (1500 / 20 = 75).

Since the hatch only weighs 50 lbs, that means that there is an upward lifting force on the hinge of 25 lbs (50 – 75 = -25, minus meaning in the opposite direction, in this case up).

So it is clear that the closer the strut is to the hinge on the hatch the higher the leverage is and the higher the load will be on both the strut and the hinge.

The second factor is the force vector of the strut. In the above example the strut is pushing straight up, so the torque load is one for one; but if the strut is acting at an angle to the direction of the load (the load being tangent to the radius from the hinge) then the equivalent force on the strut is proportional to the vector as the ratio of the sides of a right triangle with the same angles as the geometry of the strut.

So let’s kick the strut to an angle. For the sake of simplicity, let’s not worry about the specific angle but instead use a 3-4-5 triangle. In this second example let’s assume that the lower end of the strut is 3 units in front of the point where the top is pinned to the hatch, that it is 4 units below the point where it is pinned, and the that extended strut is 5 units long.

The ration of the triangle is the same as the ratio of the loads, so 4 is to 75, as 3 is to the load trying to push the hinge horizontally forward (to the right), as 5 is to the amount of force trying to compress the strut. So even though nothing has changed but the location of the bottom of the strut, the load on it is now 93.75 lbs (75/4 x 5 = 93.75). And the load trying to force the hinge forward is 56.25 lbs (75/4 x 3 = 56.25).

Now compare that to a third example where the strut bottom is only 3 units below the hatch pin, is 4 units ahead of the hatch pin, and is still 5 units long when extended. 3 is to 75, as 4 is to the load pushing forward, as 5 is to the load on the strut. So the load pushing forward goes up to 97.3 lbs (75/3 x 4 = 97.3), and the load on the strut goes up to 125 lbs.

So while this is a really simplified example (what? ), and things start getting weird when the hatch is not flat or straight out horizontal, and the strut changes length during use, etc., etc., I hope that it shows what happens when the strut is laid out flat between the CG and the hinge.

Sure, you can make it work, but it will dramatically increase the forces acting on your hinge and strut mounts, so you will need to build stronger (heavier), and use a higher powered strut. Whereas if you improve the geometry, you can drastically reduce the loads and still hold the hatch up just fine.

I didn't want to clog up your build, but you are welcome to post this there if you want. So many people have trouble with strut brackets and hinges tearing out, and just generally underestimating the load multiplication involved, that I felt it was worth trying to explain."
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:24 am

159875

159886

I'm using 1/4" bolts & metal "Tee" nuts on both brackets (fastened to the back side of 3/4" plywood gussets), so there won't be any tearing-out of wood screws. Since I can't figure out the exact forces anyway, I'm going to build stout (read: overbuild attachment points) and hope for the best in the long run. tim
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby noseoil » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:35 pm

The "old geezer's" version of the sketch-up program. Here's a sketch of the cross section for what my build will be for the hatch & wall. Scale is 1"=1" as drawn, the hatch as it will be built, and the wall panel below it. Just a pen & ink of the relationship between the parts & materials. The struts arrived today & have ball joints with attachment clips. The answer to the above question is, yes, they can be popped into place on the hardware which already has a 10mm ball on the bracket. Metal spring clip, ball & socket.

159887

I always find it's better to get the parts first, then build around them (struts & brackets, stove, propane bottle & regulator, electrical, etc). Too many times things aren't what they seem when building new things with lots of parts & different systems. Better to do a full scale mock-up, drawing, whatever, to help visualize the relationship of parts & assemblies. I up-sized the holes from 3/16" to 1/4" in these plates, because I wanted to use deeper "T" nuts & the 3/16" ones available here don't have enough thread to suit the strut loads. Better safe than sorry on the hatch.
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: Tucson tortoise

Postby KCStudly » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:54 pm

Nice sketch and good advice! :thumbsup:
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
TnTTT ORIGINAL 200A LANTERN CLUB = "The 200A Gang"
Green Lantern Corpsmen
User avatar
KCStudly
Donating Member
 
Posts: 9333
Images: 8119
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: Southeastern CT, USA
Top

Galley Design Stuff

Postby noseoil » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:15 am

Nothing fancy planned, but these will be the working drawings for the build, more or less. I may change a few little things, but the gas line is run, the battery is located in the compartment (blocking for the extra load & eye-bolts for hold-downs) & the conduit & wire runs are mapped out to get into the galley area for the power panel, so there won't be any drastic changes on this basic layout. Most likely a couple of tweaks will be made once I do a mock-up and look at things more in scale when the walls are set.

159890

Here's the hatch framing as it will be built. There are 5 ribs (3/4" ply which is 2 1/4" deep) with 4/4 poplar blocking and a few attachment points for hardware & lights. Most likely it will be oak for the hinge at the top & bottom edge for something a bit more solid.

159891

The galley will be pretty basic, just the stove/oven combo, storage & ice chest. The stove will be set up on drawer guides, to allow it to track out so the oven can vent properly and keep away from flammable materials on adjacent surfaces. I figure the cook top will be fine to use as it is with the sheet-metal wings and tucked into the counter, but the oven isn't. Too much heat cooking a pizza or rolls.
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

"T" nuts potted

Postby noseoil » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:19 pm

I counter-bored the T nuts this morning for porch lights & struts and set them in place. The porch lights will get #10 machine screws in 2 places & sheet metal screws in the opposite corners. I use 5 minute epoxy to bond the inserts in place, to make sure they're seated properly & then bonded so they can't spin when tightened. Wood screws can strip, so this is a bit better. Also drilled for the plastic "conduit (Home delay tubing from the plumbing department). Here's what it looks like at the outside porch light fixture.

159892

I double checked the strut length against my layout, found it was OK, so drilled out for these T nuts as well (1/4" bolts for a better bite & stress). Since both the 3/16" & 1/4" T nuts have the same size backing plate diameter of 3/4", I was able to use the same counter-bore to make them flush. Just a ground down speed-bore (paddle type wood bit) to let the flange thickness come down to flush, so the 1/8" skins will sit flat without bumps when they're glued up. It's basically the same type of cutter I used for the decking & elevator bolts only smaller. I'll use a small spot of masking tape on the back side, to keep glue out of the threads when gluing on the 1/8" skins.

The near panel in this second picture is showing the inside where a mounting block spacer will sit, the back panel is actually looking from the the outside, showing the T nuts glued in place with epoxy and set flush.

159894
Last edited by noseoil on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

137905
User avatar
noseoil
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1564
Images: 536
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Raton, New Mexico, living the good life!
Top

Re: "T" nuts potted

Postby working on it » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:20 pm

noseoil wrote:I double checked the strut length against my layout, found it was OK, so drilled out for these T nuts as well (1/4" bolts for a better bite & stress). Since both the 3/16" & 1/4" T nuts have the same size backing plate diameter of 3/4", I was able to use the same counter-bore to make them flush. Just a ground down speed-bore (paddle type wood bit) to let the flange thickness come down to flush, so the 1/8" skins will sit flat without bumps when they're glued up. It's basically the same type of cutter I used for the decking & elevator bolts only smaller. I'll use a small spot of masking tape on the back side, to keep glue out of the threads when gluing on the 1/8" skins.

The near panel in this second picture is showing the inside where a mounting block spacer will sit, the back panel is actually looking from the the outside, showing the T nuts glued in place with epoxy and set flush.

Image
I'm closely following your progress with your hatch struts. As you are in the process of building yours, you can take accurate measurements as you go, and perhaps can compare the optimized mounting locations and effects on the forces involved versus the one location (or more) that didn't work out right. Of course, I'm assuming that your first attempt will be improved upon (is anyone sure what works best, unless another is tried? not I). I have been searching for an easier fail-safe method to get in the ballpark, as detailed in my concurrent thread, than I have found online (including three or four current threads). The forum build pages are filled with endless trial-and-error attempts, exchanging of struts for more or less spring force, having to patch old holes and drill new ones for mounting, and even some structural damage due to the application of unknown forces in the wrong places. In your gas spring install, you have some old-hands sharing their experience along similar lines; in my case, since my hatch is vertical, and must be opened to a greater angle, the shared experiences are welcome, but not entirely apropos to the situation. Or maybe they are; I really am unsure, due to the lack of hard data for comparative analysis. I always approach a build problem (whether it is an automotive or a trailer problem) with an eye to making it work, but not necessarily in the usual way, but without having to do it over repeatedly. My car builds/repairs, were usually done right the first time, except in times of short funds, and so was my one and only experimental trailer build. Pretty much everything worked as I had envisioned (though the results were met by mixed reviews), but I regret some compromises under duress and fundless-ness. Still experimenting, but now involved in the hatch support issue (I had avoided it before, just using dowels), I am concerned by the lack of better data to share with other "future" builders who will probably face the same problem eventually, themselves. Unless the future of the TnTTT forum is to buy old standies, or cargo conversions only, then most "small" trailers will find a need to have a hatch. Sorry about the long post, not intentionally hijacking your thread, but I see a common quest here. I see that you are concerned about stresses imparted elsewhere, by your usage of backing boards; if I ever actually get my springs for mounting, I am choosing an easily repairable/easily reinforced shelf to mount mine on. I've already made too many holes in my exterior plywood, so I'm trying to avoid a high-pressure stress on my sidewalls, requiring more holes to mount a backing plate there. But, I'm going to mount an awning rail/hard points for a tarp soon, so more holes anyway. Can't win.
2013 HHRv "squareback/squaredrop", rugged, 4x8 TTT, 2220 lbs
  • *3500 lb Dexter EZ-Lube braked axle, 3000 lb.springs, active-progressive bumpstop suspension
  • *27 x 8.5-14LT AT tires (x 3) *Weight Distribution system for single-beam tongue
  • *100% LED's & GFCI outlets, 3x fans, AM/FM/CD/Aux. *A/C & heat, Optima AGM, inverter & charger(s)
  • *extended-run, on-board, 2500w generator *Coleman dual-fuel stove & lantern, Ikea grill, vintage skillet
  • *zinc/stainless front & side racks *98"L x 6" diameter rod & reel carrier tube on roof
156215157958148599
User avatar
working on it
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1986
Images: 455
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:05 pm
Location: DFW Texas
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Build Journals

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests