Ice racing

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Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:34 pm

I am not sure If I have ever posted anything about this here?? :thinking:

For a few years now, we have had an ice race toward the end of March. It is inside at one of our local Hockey rinks. We have the big race right after their last hockey game of the season… just before the ice is taken out.

Years ago when I first met Dave the owner of the pro shop in the rink. He had just gotten into biking. We somehow got talking about Ice racing. [We used to do it at a friends small farm pond. He used to keep a track plowed on it.]

Being a smart a$$ to Dave knowing available ice time is pretty hard to come by.. I asked when we could ride.. and he answered about this Saturday at such and such a time. :o Anyways we periodically got ice time.. and then had our big race at the end of the season.

Having ice time Thanksgiving night has become a tradition. Last year my co-workers son.. wanted to race then. So we start the season with a time trail. One at a time for 20 laps. So far we don't get many.. 5 or 6 people… No one doing it just for fun.

Image

This is a photo from last night. Here I was just warming up.

We make up our studded tires. There is nothing you can purchase that grips enough. We have put a lot of work experimenting with set ups. When we were younger and fitter it was easier. We just made a grippy tire and went for it. Now we balance rolling resistance and grip. Our speeds are pretty consistent around the rink. Where as on Bill's pond [which was smaller than the rink] it was more a sprint coast , sprint coast. We are riding the ice pretty fast.. as an example last night our average speeds were 22 to almost 24 miles an hour. :o

If the rink was asphalt I am not sure we could hold the turns at that speed.
glenn

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Re: Ice racing

Postby rowerwet » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Do you have studs in the tires? The town I lived in had ice racing with cars and dirt bikes on local ponds. Bikes had studs, cars used chains.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:11 pm

rowerwet wrote:Do you have studs in the tires? The town I lived in had ice racing with cars and dirt bikes on local ponds. Bikes had studs, cars used chains.


We most definitely have studs. Home made studs, none of the commercially available studs are grippy enough to do what we are doing. In an area the size of the hockey rink.. doing 20 something miles an hour through the turns, I doubt you could hold it on clean pavement.

I do have a friend that does race cars on the lakes here… and the races here they use studs. Again home made. Sometimes they let them do what they want.. other times they limit how many studs per tire they can use.
glenn

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Re: Ice racing

Postby rowerwet » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:17 pm

:oops: oops sorry I missed that part, what kind of studs? I remember the James bond movie with the car chase in the ice castle, they ended up removing all of the studs from the car tires except the outer edge of each tire, they couldn't get dramatic slipping and sliding with the full set in.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:27 am

Some just use sheet metal screws. The best set up so far are the screws they used for working with steel studs. They are sharper, and harder. We will use rubber washers made from worn our road [bike] tires, to vary how much the screws stick out. It is a fine line between having enough grip, but not too much rolling resistance. The screws are of course screwed from the inside of the tire outward. So when done we first cover each head with a dab of silicone caulking, and then we also cut an old inner tube and lay that in there.
glenn

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Re: Ice racing

Postby Dobromofo » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:26 pm

That is really awesome, 22 mph is crazy on fat tires on ice!
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:06 pm

Dobromofo wrote:That is really awesome, 22 mph is crazy on fat tires on ice!


These are some pretty fit racers. The winner, Brock, is a 30 year old Cat 1 racer. The amazing thing is the age of the others. Paul, is Brock's Dad.. is 58 and only lost by .2 of a second. Paul is obviously a beast also, and has more ice experience. Bill who got third.. still only a second off Brock, is 60, but a racer from way back. Years ago he won his district [Maine NH and Vt] time trial championship.

I am 58… I am endurance racing now.. so this short stuff is tougher for me, but keep pretty fit… and last place guy has been doing pretty good mountain bike racing, and is in his mid 40's.
glenn

Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby tony.latham » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:54 pm

We most definitely have studs. Home made studs, none of the commercially available studs are grippy enough to do what we are doing. In an area the size of the hockey rink.. doing 20 something miles an hour through the turns, I doubt you could hold it on clean pavement.


You guys need to start acting your age! :shock: :D :?

Kold Kutters don't work? I'm going to try them on my fishing boots. The carbide ones are too spendy. What are you making your own studs out of?

T
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:23 pm

tony.latham wrote:
We most definitely have studs. Home made studs, none of the commercially available studs are grippy enough to do what we are doing. In an area the size of the hockey rink.. doing 20 something miles an hour through the turns, I doubt you could hold it on clean pavement.


You guys need to start acting your age! :shock: :D :?

Kold Kutters don't work? I'm going to try them on my fishing boots. The carbide ones are too spendy. What are you making your own studs out of?

T



Kold Kutters would work as a trail stud, but I don't think they would work so good on the rink. We use the screws they use in constructing buildings with Steel studs. 7/17 sharp fines I think they were called. They are very sharp and very hard. Too much grip.. causes too much drag..and when you are personally providing the horse power.. one doesn't want any more resistance than necessary.

Right now the best of us are right at the edge. We don't have the grip to go much faster, and any extra grip we wouldn't have the HP to push it. In March when we do the mass start races.. so their for sprint finishes.. our last laps are faster than what our time trail averages were… but we are really hitting the limits in that. I got "screwed" in last years race. In turn Number 3 of our final lap. I was lapping someone who had been dropped, I had to tuck tight inside of him,to get by. He moved over as I passed him so the guy behind me didn't have the same problem. Being tight inside on turn three, meant I had to take the final turn a little wider than ideal, [in order to not slide out]. This left room for the Bass Turd behind me to slip through and edge me out at the line for second. :fb :lol: :shrug:
glenn

Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair.
Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Ice racing

Postby angib » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:13 pm

Well, now, here's an oddity for you - European winter bicycle tyres, just waiting to go on my bike this weekend.

winters.jpg
winters.jpg (90.73 KiB) Viewed 1596 times

These are really intended for city use so they concentrate on grip on ice - they aren't much good at snow, being too narrow. In addition to all the sipes (tread grooves), the rubber has small glass particles embedded into it so they grip fairly well on ice, good enough to ride up an icy hill that has water running down it.

I'm sure studded tyres would be much, much better for grip on ice but these cope with everything - even cornering over wet metal manhole covers holds no risks.

Being handmade in Germany, they are terribly expensive but for British roads/paths, where snow is very rare but ice fairly common, they are a lifesaver.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:12 pm

angib wrote:Well, now, here's an oddity for you - European winter bicycle tyres, just waiting to go on my bike this weekend.

winters.jpg

These are really intended for city use so they concentrate on grip on ice - they aren't much good at snow, being too narrow. In addition to all the sipes (tread grooves), the rubber has small glass particles embedded into it so they grip fairly well on ice, good enough to ride up an icy hill that has water running down it.

I'm sure studded tyres would be much, much better for grip on ice but these cope with everything - even cornering over wet metal manhole covers holds no risks.

Being handmade in Germany, they are terribly expensive but for British roads/paths, where snow is very rare but ice fairly common, they are a lifesaver.


I have seen [or read about.. I haven't seen them in person] similar tires. hmm I think some of them had ground walnut shells in the mix instead of the glass. I can't fathom that either of them, would handle what we do on the rink, but for a winter commuting tire it sounds real interesting. I have an old [1960's] race bike I use for winter training. It has room for 35mm studded tires. They work pretty good on snowy / icy roads, but are of course slow on the bare pavement. These other snow tires would be a lot more "fun" for that. :D

I just might have to look into them and maybe try them out.
glenn

Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby angib » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:45 am

Strangely, even if I rub my hand over the tyres, I can't feel the glass particles, but the ability to ride safely on wet ice suggests to me that there is more than just rubber there (plus they are made by Conti and I doubt they would flat out lie about it). So I guess the particles are something like 1200 grit abrasive which just feels grippy rather than rough.

I'm sure studded tyres are better on ice but I imagine they would be lethal on dry pavement.
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Re: Ice racing

Postby Fenlason » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:05 am

angib wrote:Strangely, even if I rub my hand over the tyres, I can't feel the glass particles, but the ability to ride safely on wet ice suggests to me that there is more than just rubber there (plus they are made by Conti and I doubt they would flat out lie about it). So I guess the particles are something like 1200 grit abrasive which just feels grippy rather than rough.

I'm sure studded tyres are better on ice but I imagine they would be lethal on dry pavement.


I was just looking at the Contis :D

Our race tires would be horrible on the pavement.. but they would also be ruined fairly quickly. Those of us that are serious about ice racing, never even set the tires down on anything that might dull them. We carry them to and from the rink.

Commercially available studded tires, are not bad. They are of course slower on clean dry pavement, and probably not as grippy as a tire without studs, if you are really pushing it, but I think they are the best option for most of my winter road riding.
glenn

Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair.
Kahlil Gibran

We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing.
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