All Terrain Tires

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All Terrain Tires

Postby Furio » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:26 pm

Hello, I have a question regarding trailer tires. My tow vehicle is a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, I would like to possibly use matching tires; Cooper Discoverer ATP 255/75-17. I read everywhere that car tires on a trailer is bad because they have a flexible side wall where as a trailer tire has a much stiffer one.

Wouldn't an all terrain tire have a stiff sidewall? I see teardrops sold with all terrain tires on them. Are those for off road only? Is it safe for freeway speeds too?

This is mostly based on looks but it will also be nice to share a spare tire.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Socal Tom » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:46 pm

I think the sidewall thing could be worth considering on a heavy trailer, but with a TD that might weigh 1500lbs, and tires that are rated to carry 3 times that I wouldn't worry.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Furio » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:24 pm

Right on,

What year is your Jeep? Mine is a 2010, so I have the smaller engine (2012 was the upgrade). Wondering how it tows,I just took mine out too Yellowstone and those mountain interstates with 80MPH speed limits was a little rough.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Socal Tom » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:29 pm

Furio wrote:Right on,

What year is your Jeep? Mine is a 2010, so I have the smaller engine (2012 was the upgrade). Wondering how it tows,I just took mine out too Yellowstone and those mountain interstates with 80MPH speed limits was a little rough.


Its a 2007. It tows my TD fine, but I do have it set up with the superchip with the tow setting. I've got a sahara with 4.10 gears so that helps. I don't run at 80 especially with the trailer. I generally run about 60 towing, and I stay 65 -70 the rest of the time, unless traffic is pushing me.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Camp4Life » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:46 am

It's all about weight capacity, stability and tracking. Trailer tires (designated ST) will still have stiffer sidewalls than offroad tires. Trailer tires also have shallower threads to avoid wiggling from tread flex. In fact, I've found offroad tires to have more flex than standard P and LT road tires. I had 33" Cooper Discoverer STT's on my previous vehicle and could feel the sideways flex much more than my GY Silent Armors. They also made the trailer more stable because they don't compress as easily, and your trailer won't tilt side-to-side as much, causing extra sway.

You also have to take into account the material they're made out of. Trailer tires resist UV and oxidization better than standard tires because they're meant to spend of a lot of time sitting around doing nothing. They're also constantly in the stream of exhaust coming from your tow vehicle, which eats away at the rubber of normal tires. Ask someone who tows a trailer with normal passenger tires on it if they had a tire blow, and which side it was on, and I'll bet you it was on the same side as the exhaust from their vehicle.

There's nothing wrong with using offroad tires for a trailer. Just be aware of the reason why ST tires exist, and carry a spare :thumbsup:
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Andrew Herrick » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:16 pm

I don't have experience or wisdom to offer - just a question! :)

I've heard some off-roaders like to run the same wheels on their trailers as their vehicles so they can use them all interchangeably. Is this the case, and if so, is it advisable for this builder's situation?
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby tony.latham » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:10 pm

I run LT'-AT's on our 'drop. Radials run noticeably better than bias tires.

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It's my understanding that stiff-walled trailer tires are built that way to take the side loads of double axle trailers when in a tight turn.

Exhaust fumes degrading tire rubber? Trailer tires more UV resistant? Is that true? :thinking:

T
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Camp4Life » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:06 pm

Andrew Herrick wrote:I don't have experience or wisdom to offer - just a question! :)

I've heard some off-roaders like to run the same wheels on their trailers as their vehicles so they can use them all interchangeably. Is this the case, and if so, is it advisable for this builder's situation?


Having the same tires as the trailer is definitely an advantage, but moreso for very long expeditions and overland trips where it's more likely to lose more than one tire on your trip. You should always have a spare for your trailer. If you start getting flats or blowouts on a regular basis, then it might be time to look into upgrading your tires to something that can stand the abuse, and consider if you might be overloading your tires.


tony.latham wrote:I run LT'-AT's on our 'drop. Radials run noticeably better than bias tires.

Image

It's my understanding that stiff-walled trailer tires are built that way to take the side loads of double axle trailers when in a tight turn.

Exhaust fumes degrading tire rubber? Trailer tires more UV resistant? Is that true? :thinking:

T


LT tires are definitely better than P-rated tires, but ST are still better than LT because the ST's are designed to take side loads, where LT tires are not. As with most things, ST tires were created for a reason, and their specific application.

Some more reading on trailer (ST) tires as well as the effects of oxidization and UV on the rubber:

http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-tech/rolling-along-safely-a-tire-guide/

http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Trailer-Tire-Basics

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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby tony.latham » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:48 pm

but ST are still better than LT because the ST's are designed to take side loads,


Agreed. And as stated on that web page: "You may have noticed that tight turns with your tandem- and triple-axle trailer put tremendous side loads on the tires. You can see it in the sidewalls or hear it coming from the contact patch. ST tires are designed to handle these side stresses; LTs usually are not."

The OP is asking for thoughts on teardrops not double-axled trailers.

The reason I went with these LT radials was because of a conversation I had with two tire-fixers that work at the local Les Schwab tire store––they don't sell tires––these are the guys that fix flats and remount tires forty-hours a week for the last many-many years. (This community is agricultural and recreational based with lots of trailers.) Between the two, I'm sure they have over thirty years of fixing busted tires.

I asked these guys: What tires would you guys put on a teardrop that weighed 1300 pounds if it was yours and you didn't want any flats? They looked at each other and spat the same answer out at the same time.

For a single axle trailer, I'll stick to my LT radials.

As Grant Whipp once stated on this forum:
Mid-grade automotive radial tires ... I've been using them on my teardrops for almost 30 years with never a problem, and always a way better ride ...
Grant's built more teardrops than I'll probaly ever see.

:thumbsup: :beer:

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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Camp4Life » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:48 am

Yeah I'm not knocking using LT tires, especially for a single axle, and something really light like a tear drop that comes in under a couple thousand pounds. People just need to be aware of the max load for the tire and ensure they're inflated properly. Getting close to max load, or running underinflated will increase the chance of a tire failure, and the sideways flexing together with any swaying will make the swaying even worse. I've never towed a little trailer so I don't know how unconcerned you can be towing it, and I also drive an F-150 which I'll tow 6000+ lbs with easily. But at this point I'm always very concerned with the trailer's tires and their condition. And they're always ST tires, be it single or dual axle. Goodyear Marathon ST tires are great and last a long long time. Carlisle's are good too.

Honestly, for some of these trailer coming in at sub 1200lbs, you can probably run anything, but I would never recommend that to someone, and will always recommend ST's. I never want to be that guy who claims to be an expert saying "yeah go ahead and run XXXX tires, it'll be fine, I've done it for years, etc" and then have someone run them and have a blowout on the highway, because it would look bad on me. You put the square peg in the square hole, and I wouldn't suggest anything different. :lol:

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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby working on it » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:24 pm

Furio wrote:Hello, I have a question regarding trailer tires. My tow vehicle is a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, I would like to possibly use matching tires; Cooper Discoverer ATP 255/75-17. I read everywhere that car tires on a trailer is bad because they have a flexible side wall where as a trailer tire has a much stiffer one. Wouldn't an all terrain tire have a stiff sidewall? I see teardrops sold with all terrain tires on them. Are those for off road only? Is it safe for freeway speeds too?....
tony.latham wrote:
but ST are still better than LT because the ST's are designed to take side loads,

Agreed....The reason I went with these LT radials was because of a conversation I had with two tire-fixers that work at the local Les Schwab tire store––they don't sell tires––these are the guys that fix flats and remount tires forty-hours a week for the last many-many years. (This community is agricultural and recreational based with lots of trailers.) Between the two, I'm sure they have over thirty years of fixing busted tires.

I asked these guys: What tires would you guys put on a teardrop that weighed 1300 pounds if it was yours and you didn't want any flats? They looked at each other and spat the same answer out at the same time.

For a single axle trailer, I'll stick to my LT radials.... :thumbsup: :beer: Tony
I just came to the same conclusion myself, after twenty years of sticking to the "ST for trailers, LT for trucks, P radials on cars" dictum, and arguing with my friends and neighbors about it. Even on this forum. But, after sitting out camping, not using my TTT or hauling loads in my other trailers for over a year, I knew I had to get new tires before I ventured forth, again. I have my TTT suspended in the air, in the garage, so I could inspect (and to keep from flat-spotting) my Carlisle ST bias-ply tires that are 12 years old. They were given to me 5.5 years ago, after having been used for 4 and sitting in a scrap tire pile for 2.5 years (they both had punctures and had been replaced). I counted my lucky stars that they had survived a pothole incident that damaged my 10 year old LT tires on my truck. I sure wasn't going to trust them any longer, so I reviewed my tire history (all the tires I have had, what happened to them, and was I happy with them) covering all my trucks and trailers, for the last 20 or so years. My conclusion was, LT tires had the best record on my trucks (over 300,000 miles and just one flat tire, despite the tire damage from the major pothole incident, those tires didn't go flat!); the ST trailer tires had a mixed record: 1) the Denman tires (made in USA) lasted longest-10 years for 3 before the tread was gone, and one complete shredding for unknown reasons-, 2) the Carlisle USA Trail (made in USA) ST tires- the two on my TTT are still round and inflated, after 12 years, but of the 4 I had on my big trailer, only one (with no tread left) survives as my spare, while a mixed bag of Chinese "SHIELD" brand bias-ply and radials (I needed four, out on the road), 2 and 2 on separate axles, worked fairly well, but the radials' sidewalls have disintegrated while the trailer sits unused in the yard (the bias-ply tires are not flat yet, but I'll not trust them either). As for my wife's trailer tires, Loadstar Radials: they are 9 years old, still hold air, have only 5k lite-duty miles on them, look good. Good enough to sell the unused trailer with! My conclusion is this: the truck LT tires have lived a much harder life, lasted longer per tire, showed no age-or-weather cracking (as seen on many of my ST tires), and have had less flats from road debris (one versus a dozen, including the unknown tire shredding).ST trailer tires, travelled less miles, and were more undependable than LT s. I, nor many of my racing friends, liked ST radials on tandem trailers, due to sway, so all went to bias-ply when able to (some put all their money into their cars!) The summation I arrived at, was to put LT tires on my TTT, since it is the trailer I'll use most, from now on. The LT tire will be able to handle my heavy-ish single axle, both on highway and dirt road, since it is intended as all-terrain (and the tread depth is twice the alternative ST bias-ply I would've chosen), and no doubt will track better on slick or muddy surfaces. I posted similar reasoning for going to LT tires in a post on Exploration Portal http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/168871-softroad-amp-highway-trailer-tires-ST-bias-ply-vs-radial-or-LT-tire-for-14-quot-wheel In the end, I bought two General Grabber AT 2 27X8.50R14tires. I apologize for trying to sway people to ST tires on their teardrops for so long; I'm converted!
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:17 pm

I figure the blanket statements against it are for the herd. It can be done, but numerous things have to be right.

Firstly, in the herd mind, a 205/70 ST 14" and a 205/70R14 are identical, nothing to pick between them, apart from one says ST on it.... well the trailer one maybe has a 2000lb or so load rating and the car version maybe 1400lb. Also they don't see that trailer rims and auto rims have different bead profiles, auto tires fall off trailer rims.

Secondly in the herd mind. "If you blow it up to maximum sidewall it will blow up." No, that is the only point it attains it's maximum load rating. A tire HAS TO BE at sidewall to achieve it's max speed and load ratings, otherwise it's grinding sidewall heating up too much. Numbers on your car door pillar are as much about ride and road noise as being the maximum inflation pressure, they are a hard minimum though, look in the manual some cars will tell you, if driving at high speed or with heavy loads for long periods, inflate tires to max sidewall pressure.

Thirdly in the herd mind. Hot pressure = cold pressure, "it's all pressure, if I check at a brief stop and my pressure is 5psi up, I should let it out." I don't care if it's 50 PSI over cold, leave it, it's designed in.

These people need to be told, if it's a trailer put the correct trailer tire on it.


However,,,.

Load rating, load rating, load rating, auto tires only go on auto rims, trailer tires only go on trailer rims, run (whatever) tires on trailer at max sidewall cold pressure always, it runs coolest and supports the most.

Get a tire rated 20% over half the axle load rating at least, leaves room for Murphy,

Do not expect an auto tire rated high enough load to actually fit in the wheel well of your factory trailer. ST tires mostly have much higher load ratings for their size than P tires and as they get larger, LT tires even. Modifications to accommodate your preferred tire are on you.

Rims, auto tires, use auto rims, trailers often want a negative offset though, if a rim suitable to swap on your vehicle is high positive, then you may need to use spacers on the trailer, getting this right, modifying the hub, ensuring the bearing can take the load if the centerline of the combo is off, all on you.

However, the above is all fairly simple to achieve by offroaders who'll be doing an axle flip or lift on a trailer ensuring plenty of room that large tires go under it and are typically using trailers limited in weight and size. Then the TV matching LT tires in use often have decently high load ratings that you don't even have to notice to "get away with it."

Should you therefore decide to do this with your econobox Toyota and put matching tires on your teardrop you are likely to hit the following problems... i) Load rating, you've probably got ~800lb rated tires on your econobox, this limits you to a total weight, wet and loaded (GVWR) of 1300lb after you leave 20% margin (For blowouts etc, not for when you accidentally want to carry 20% more.) So if you built heavy, forget it. Secondly if your base trailer came with the little 8" rims, or 10" even, you've probably built everything in around them, there may not be room to stick a 24" diameter tire where a 20" or less diameter tire was meant to go, test clearance at full suspension articulation, buy new fenders, rehack your trailer body, whatever you have to do. Thirdly, rim offset, FWD positive, trailers likely negative. might not work, may require spacers, or different hubs if you've got 5x100 and trailer has 4x100.


But yeah, always use ST tires on trailers.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby Shadow Catcher » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:37 pm

After seeing the number of catastrophic tire folks have had here with grossly under loaded tires, failing and doing some research on ST tires (all made in China) and talking with a Goodyear tire exec who indicated China tires were "junk". I bought a pair of Micheline Harmony passenger care tires each of which has a rating greater than the weight of the entire trailer.
You do not necessarily want matching tires to a 4X4, added weight, width etc. that you have to drag around. I do carry an adapter so that I can use the spare from the TV.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:01 pm

Kendo tires have been getting good feedback from all the RV groups I hang out on, if anyone determined to stick with trailer type.
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Re: All Terrain Tires

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:10 pm

Camp4Life wrote: Ask someone who tows a trailer with normal passenger tires on it if they had a tire blow, and which side it was on, and I'll bet you it was on the same side as the exhaust from their vehicle.


All vehicles I've had, have had exhaust exit on the passenger side. That's the side that gets all the protruding drain covers, most of the pot holes and curb rubs and has most weight on it on a cambered road... so I'm kinda doubtful it's all on the exhaust.
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