Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby Padilen » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:08 pm

H.A. wrote:
Boreal wrote:Take a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9m4sbWHZN0

At the 5:18 mark, he clearly says (and points to) this fact: the negative/ground (white wires) from the DC circuit gets screwed into the AC neutral (white) location, as labeled on the PD manual.

Really? The DC neutral can be connected to the AC neutral? Is it that easy?


Folks should not gain their electrical education from a Shadetree Guy on Youtube...
Nothing but neutral connections from 120vac circuits should be connected to the neutral bussbar.

I dislike that people post How To videos and have mistakes. Those mistakes are pointed out in the comments. Yet the video is not corrected or taken down.


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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby Boreal » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:43 pm

Well, damn... things connected and things work. I mean, with straight up DC.

I'm now connecting the AC mains from a shore plugin in my tongue box.

One. More. Snag. :shock:

There's no place for me to connect my AC HOT (black) wire from the converter. That place where I'm pointing to on my PD unit? There's nothing there.

[Edit: I originally said black from shore, but I meant black form the converter. It just hangs there.]

:x

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Last edited by Boreal on Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby mcubberley » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:47 pm

Black from the shore power goes into you main power breaker. The white to the white bus bar and green to the green bus bar.

There needs to be a breaker between the shore power and the pd4045. That breaker distributes current to the other circuits via the metal rail the breaker clips into.

This is like the main breaker on your house. Cut that breaker and nothing gets power.

From your pictures it looks like you have two AC circuits with their own breakers. One is the converter for charging the battery and the other is likely your outlets. The breaker you add for the power coming in determines how much your system has access to. If you are using 30amp shore plugs and wiring you will use a 30amp or less breaker.

Go back and review all the wiring diagrams in this thread they show solid information.

What you are pointing two used to hold a connector for connecting the converter to a breaker in previous models. Now that black from the converter goes directly into a dedicated breaker. In the diagrams you see how it is basically just a way to tie two lengths of wire tied together to get it back to the breaker. The space is just an artifact from that.
Last edited by mcubberley on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby Shadow Catcher » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:02 pm

Unlike most instruction manuals the Progressive Dynamics have understandable drawings http://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/110145%20English%20Only.pdf check page 1
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby Boreal » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:44 pm

Thanks Mccuberley, Shaddow.

I read quite well, but two problems.

1. The updated manual provided by troubleScottie still had the old neutral black buss bar in it. SO that confused.

2. I mis-stated what black wire I was looking to connect. I *did* say the AC in Black, but I actually meant the converter black. It is now clear to me that the converter gets its own breaker, which is what that empty 15A breaker was for.

My best guess is that in previous editions of the PD unit, the converter was simply wired into hot, using the 30A breaker alone. Or something. It really doesn't matter, since I seem to have a handle on it now. Everything is connected and seems to be working just fine. SO we'll close this chapter of the saga.

Now...where do I bring my solar DC in to (from panels on the roof)? Asking for a friend.
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby mcubberley » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:54 pm

Glad you got a handle on it. Just go back and use a multimeter to test all your outlets and your dc circuits since they may all seem to be working but in fact, there is a problem you can't see by plugging something in. Better to catch errors now then once the camper is all buttoned up.
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby kludge » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:30 am

mcubberley wrote:They are not tied together. The items you pointed out supply the AC power to the converter unit (think of the converter as an appliance that needs an outlet) as well those are two separate bus bars so the greens and whites would not be intermingled. This is what sends ac power to the battery tender/charger so the AC neutral, hot, and ground never interacting in a way that would suggest they are common to anything on the DC side.

When I did my install I screwed up and tried to use the green bus bar in that picture to serve as the negative (black) side of my DC circuits. This lead to a current leak on my AC ground which was not a good thing. One needs to connect the DC black (-) directly to the battery or at the point where the battery black (-) connects to the unit with heavy gauge wire. This closes the DC circuits. Again referring back to my blunder connecting them to the AC ground bus bar or the negative bus bar did not work and caused the current leak across my AC ground.

So the AC neutral(white), AC ground (green), and the DC - (black) should all be treated as separate and different things because they are different and should not be treated as a bunch of negatives, grounds or neutrals.

This is all just based on my experience and also with scouring the various posts I researched on this site.


Like I said I don't have this converter, so I'm just going by drawings and the owners manual on the internet.

I agree, AC-Neutral, AC-Ground, and DC(-) are all different things and the differences should be respected.

Since, as you point out, in this converter they are not tied together, that leads me to conclusion that *at the converter* the DC(-) is floating.

So lets take a look at all the potential (no pun intended) "grounds" in this system:
1. TOW VEHICLE CHASSIS GROUND -- The tow vehicle will have its BATT(-) tied to the frame/engine block/body. The charging system (alternator) will be grounded to the engine block. The towing harness will have a ground wire attached to the body or chassis providing a return path back to TV-BATT.
2. SHORE POWER EARTH GROUND -- To get a complete picture, we have to go back to the service drop at the "telephone pole". The top wire on a telephone pole is a ground wire. If you pay attention, every few poles there is a cable running down to the ground. This puts the ground potential at the highest elevation for lightning protection of the distribution lines. But this ground doesn't run to your house/building.
2a) On the pole (let's assume a simple residential case) there is a split-phase transformer that steps the voltage down to two 120VAC phases, 180 degrees apart, for 240VAC between the phases, and a neutral. The output of this transformer is floating (i.e. no ground reference) and three wires are run to the main AC panel of the building. The two "HOTS" (L1 and L2) are connected to two terminals of a ganged circuit breaker (assume 100A each). The output of the circuit breakers are attached to the two hot buses, to which other breakers can be installed. The NEUTRAL from the transformer runs into the panel and is connected to the neutral bus bar in the panel. Right now the AC system in the house is floating, i.e. no reference, and very unsafe, so a long metal rod is driven into the ground right outise the building where the AC panel is and a fat cable is connected to it. This EARTH GROUND cable is run into the AC panel and it is tied to the AC-Neutral (aka BONDED or BONDING). Sometimes there are separate neutral and earth ground buses, but they are bonded together here for safety (this prevents the AC-Neutral from "floating" and creating a shock hazard.
2b) From the AC panel three wires (L, N, G) at 120VAC are run to the pole (shore power pole) in the campsite. Usually these wires are buried using cable rated for "direct burial". It can be a long way (a couple hundred feet) from the AC panel to the pole, so this is why I would always use GFCI breakers or outlets in a trailer. This is a measure of protection, cuz ground over there won't be quite the same as ground over here.
3. TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND -- chances are all the tail lights and possible the running lights of the trailer don't have a DC return wire (or maybe a really short one) and they depend on the chassis (frame) of the trailer for current to get back to the wire harness and back to the TV-BATT(-). If the trailer lights aren't attached to the chassis (as is the case in many teardrops), then the builder will need to run return wires back to the "ground" connection of the wire harness.
3a) Many RV/auto appliances will use TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND for their return path.
3b) It appears from the wiring diagram that the PD 4045 (no DC return bus), that they are relying on the builder to us TRAILER CHASSIS for the return path.
3c) To accomplish this the, TRAILER BATT(-) is terminal connected to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
3d) RV manufacturers, because of all the non-conducting goo they put on seams, they BOND the metal framework/skin to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND also, so that lights and stuff have a return path.
3e) When the wire harness is connected (and to an extent, when the trailer is on the hitch), the TV and the trailer will have the save reference potential and TV CHASSIS GROUND = TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
4. CONVERTER GROUND -- The AC wiring coming into the trailer will connect the EARTH GROUND of the AC mains to the converter at the ground bus. I wouldn't say it's "floating", but it is a long way back to the stake in the earth.
4a) The PD 4045 drawing shows that there is a L, N, and G wore going to the converter/charger. L and N go to a transformer and I will assume this is completely "isolated" (there is no common terminal for AC-N and DC NEG on the transformer), so the battery output (and the battery) will be "floating" (i.e. it has no ground reference) unless the BATT(-) is tied to something. That something should be the trailer chassis.
4b) The EARTH GROUND wire going from the ground bus to the converter/charger circuit is probably tied to a metal box (cage) that encloses the charger circuitry. This protects you in case of an insulation fault/short within the charger (the circuit breaker will open).
5. For safety I would personally also EARTH GROUND the trailer chassis to the the EARTH GROUND. This will protect you (the breaker will open) in the event of a AC insulation failure.

You say you had a current leak? I wonder where it was coming from and where it was going? Nothing in the foregoing would, in an of itself, cause a current leak.
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby mcubberley » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:55 am

kludge wrote:
mcubberley wrote:They are not tied together. The items you pointed out supply the AC power to the converter unit (think of the converter as an appliance that needs an outlet) as well those are two separate bus bars so the greens and whites would not be intermingled. This is what sends ac power to the battery tender/charger so the AC neutral, hot, and ground never interacting in a way that would suggest they are common to anything on the DC side.

When I did my install I screwed up and tried to use the green bus bar in that picture to serve as the negative (black) side of my DC circuits. This lead to a current leak on my AC ground which was not a good thing. One needs to connect the DC black (-) directly to the battery or at the point where the battery black (-) connects to the unit with heavy gauge wire. This closes the DC circuits. Again referring back to my blunder connecting them to the AC ground bus bar or the negative bus bar did not work and caused the current leak across my AC ground.

So the AC neutral(white), AC ground (green), and the DC - (black) should all be treated as separate and different things because they are different and should not be treated as a bunch of negatives, grounds or neutrals.

This is all just based on my experience and also with scouring the various posts I researched on this site.


Like I said I don't have this converter, so I'm just going by drawings and the owners manual on the internet.

I agree, AC-Neutral, AC-Ground, and DC(-) are all different things and the differences should be respected.

Since, as you point out, in this converter they are not tied together, that leads me to conclusion that *at the converter* the DC(-) is floating.

So lets take a look at all the potential (no pun intended) "grounds" in this system:
1. TOW VEHICLE CHASSIS GROUND -- The tow vehicle will have its BATT(-) tied to the frame/engine block/body. The charging system (alternator) will be grounded to the engine block. The towing harness will have a ground wire attached to the body or chassis providing a return path back to TV-BATT.
2. SHORE POWER EARTH GROUND -- To get a complete picture, we have to go back to the service drop at the "telephone pole". The top wire on a telephone pole is a ground wire. If you pay attention, every few poles there is a cable running down to the ground. This puts the ground potential at the highest elevation for lightning protection of the distribution lines. But this ground doesn't run to your house/building.
2a) On the pole (let's assume a simple residential case) there is a split-phase transformer that steps the voltage down to two 120VAC phases, 180 degrees apart, for 240VAC between the phases, and a neutral. The output of this transformer is floating (i.e. no ground reference) and three wires are run to the main AC panel of the building. The two "HOTS" (L1 and L2) are connected to two terminals of a ganged circuit breaker (assume 100A each). The output of the circuit breakers are attached to the two hot buses, to which other breakers can be installed. The NEUTRAL from the transformer runs into the panel and is connected to the neutral bus bar in the panel. Right now the AC system in the house is floating, i.e. no reference, and very unsafe, so a long metal rod is driven into the ground right outise the building where the AC panel is and a fat cable is connected to it. This EARTH GROUND cable is run into the AC panel and it is tied to the AC-Neutral (aka BONDED or BONDING). Sometimes there are separate neutral and earth ground buses, but they are bonded together here for safety (this prevents the AC-Neutral from "floating" and creating a shock hazard.
2b) From the AC panel three wires (L, N, G) at 120VAC are run to the pole (shore power pole) in the campsite. Usually these wires are buried using cable rated for "direct burial". It can be a long way (a couple hundred feet) from the AC panel to the pole, so this is why I would always use GFCI breakers or outlets in a trailer. This is a measure of protection, cuz ground over there won't be quite the same as ground over here.
3. TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND -- chances are all the tail lights and possible the running lights of the trailer don't have a DC return wire (or maybe a really short one) and they depend on the chassis (frame) of the trailer for current to get back to the wire harness and back to the TV-BATT(-). If the trailer lights aren't attached to the chassis (as is the case in many teardrops), then the builder will need to run return wires back to the "ground" connection of the wire harness.
3a) Many RV/auto appliances will use TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND for their return path.
3b) It appears from the wiring diagram that the PD 4045 (no DC return bus), that they are relying on the builder to us TRAILER CHASSIS for the return path.
3c) To accomplish this the, TRAILER BATT(-) is terminal connected to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
3d) RV manufacturers, because of all the non-conducting goo they put on seams, they BOND the metal framework/skin to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND also, so that lights and stuff have a return path.
3e) When the wire harness is connected (and to an extent, when the trailer is on the hitch), the TV and the trailer will have the save reference potential and TV CHASSIS GROUND = TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
4. CONVERTER GROUND -- The AC wiring coming into the trailer will connect the EARTH GROUND of the AC mains to the converter at the ground bus. I wouldn't say it's "floating", but it is a long way back to the stake in the earth.
4a) The PD 4045 drawing shows that there is a L, N, and G wore going to the converter/charger. L and N go to a transformer and I will assume this is completely "isolated" (there is no common terminal for AC-N and DC NEG on the transformer), so the battery output (and the battery) will be "floating" (i.e. it has no ground reference) unless the BATT(-) is tied to something. That something should be the trailer chassis.
4b) The EARTH GROUND wire going from the ground bus to the converter/charger circuit is probably tied to a metal box (cage) that encloses the charger circuitry. This protects you in case of an insulation fault/short within the charger (the circuit breaker will open).
5. For safety I would personally also EARTH GROUND the trailer chassis to the the EARTH GROUND. This will protect you (the breaker will open) in the event of a AC insulation failure.

You say you had a current leak? I wonder where it was coming from and where it was going? Nothing in the foregoing would, in an of itself, cause a current leak.


The leak went away when I removed D.C.- return from the AC ground bus bar. And tied the D.C.- return directly to the battery.
Some day I will figure out something to put here. But for now....
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Re: Grounding a PD 4045 - throuroughly confused

Postby mcubberley » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:15 am

kludge wrote:
mcubberley wrote:They are not tied together. The items you pointed out supply the AC power to the converter unit (think of the converter as an appliance that needs an outlet) as well those are two separate bus bars so the greens and whites would not be intermingled. This is what sends ac power to the battery tender/charger so the AC neutral, hot, and ground never interacting in a way that would suggest they are common to anything on the DC side.

When I did my install I screwed up and tried to use the green bus bar in that picture to serve as the negative (black) side of my DC circuits. This lead to a current leak on my AC ground which was not a good thing. One needs to connect the DC black (-) directly to the battery or at the point where the battery black (-) connects to the unit with heavy gauge wire. This closes the DC circuits. Again referring back to my blunder connecting them to the AC ground bus bar or the negative bus bar did not work and caused the current leak across my AC ground.

So the AC neutral(white), AC ground (green), and the DC - (black) should all be treated as separate and different things because they are different and should not be treated as a bunch of negatives, grounds or neutrals.

This is all just based on my experience and also with scouring the various posts I researched on this site.


Like I said I don't have this converter, so I'm just going by drawings and the owners manual on the internet.

I agree, AC-Neutral, AC-Ground, and DC(-) are all different things and the differences should be respected.

Since, as you point out, in this converter they are not tied together, that leads me to conclusion that *at the converter* the DC(-) is floating.

So lets take a look at all the potential (no pun intended) "grounds" in this system:
1. TOW VEHICLE CHASSIS GROUND -- The tow vehicle will have its BATT(-) tied to the frame/engine block/body. The charging system (alternator) will be grounded to the engine block. The towing harness will have a ground wire attached to the body or chassis providing a return path back to TV-BATT.
2. SHORE POWER EARTH GROUND -- To get a complete picture, we have to go back to the service drop at the "telephone pole". The top wire on a telephone pole is a ground wire. If you pay attention, every few poles there is a cable running down to the ground. This puts the ground potential at the highest elevation for lightning protection of the distribution lines. But this ground doesn't run to your house/building.
2a) On the pole (let's assume a simple residential case) there is a split-phase transformer that steps the voltage down to two 120VAC phases, 180 degrees apart, for 240VAC between the phases, and a neutral. The output of this transformer is floating (i.e. no ground reference) and three wires are run to the main AC panel of the building. The two "HOTS" (L1 and L2) are connected to two terminals of a ganged circuit breaker (assume 100A each). The output of the circuit breakers are attached to the two hot buses, to which other breakers can be installed. The NEUTRAL from the transformer runs into the panel and is connected to the neutral bus bar in the panel. Right now the AC system in the house is floating, i.e. no reference, and very unsafe, so a long metal rod is driven into the ground right outise the building where the AC panel is and a fat cable is connected to it. This EARTH GROUND cable is run into the AC panel and it is tied to the AC-Neutral (aka BONDED or BONDING). Sometimes there are separate neutral and earth ground buses, but they are bonded together here for safety (this prevents the AC-Neutral from "floating" and creating a shock hazard.
2b) From the AC panel three wires (L, N, G) at 120VAC are run to the pole (shore power pole) in the campsite. Usually these wires are buried using cable rated for "direct burial". It can be a long way (a couple hundred feet) from the AC panel to the pole, so this is why I would always use GFCI breakers or outlets in a trailer. This is a measure of protection, cuz ground over there won't be quite the same as ground over here.
3. TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND -- chances are all the tail lights and possible the running lights of the trailer don't have a DC return wire (or maybe a really short one) and they depend on the chassis (frame) of the trailer for current to get back to the wire harness and back to the TV-BATT(-). If the trailer lights aren't attached to the chassis (as is the case in many teardrops), then the builder will need to run return wires back to the "ground" connection of the wire harness.
3a) Many RV/auto appliances will use TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND for their return path.
3b) It appears from the wiring diagram that the PD 4045 (no DC return bus), that they are relying on the builder to us TRAILER CHASSIS for the return path.
3c) To accomplish this the, TRAILER BATT(-) is terminal connected to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
3d) RV manufacturers, because of all the non-conducting goo they put on seams, they BOND the metal framework/skin to the TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND also, so that lights and stuff have a return path.
3e) When the wire harness is connected (and to an extent, when the trailer is on the hitch), the TV and the trailer will have the save reference potential and TV CHASSIS GROUND = TRAILER CHASSIS GROUND.
4. CONVERTER GROUND -- The AC wiring coming into the trailer will connect the EARTH GROUND of the AC mains to the converter at the ground bus. I wouldn't say it's "floating", but it is a long way back to the stake in the earth.
4a) The PD 4045 drawing shows that there is a L, N, and G wore going to the converter/charger. L and N go to a transformer and I will assume this is completely "isolated" (there is no common terminal for AC-N and DC NEG on the transformer), so the battery output (and the battery) will be "floating" (i.e. it has no ground reference) unless the BATT(-) is tied to something. That something should be the trailer chassis.
4b) The EARTH GROUND wire going from the ground bus to the converter/charger circuit is probably tied to a metal box (cage) that encloses the charger circuitry. This protects you in case of an insulation fault/short within the charger (the circuit breaker will open).
5. For safety I would personally also EARTH GROUND the trailer chassis to the the EARTH GROUND. This will protect you (the breaker will open) in the event of a AC insulation failure.

You say you had a current leak? I wonder where it was coming from and where it was going? Nothing in the foregoing would, in an of itself, cause a current leak.


The leak went away when I removed D.C.- return from the AC ground bus bar. And tied the D.C.- return directly to the battery.
Some day I will figure out something to put here. But for now....
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I made my own blog, feel free to browse: http://themodernshopteacher.com
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