My Thoughts On A Off Road Foamie

[ghcoe]

So in a attempt to sell a foamie I found that the hardest part of the sale is the construction method. They are really interested, because it weighs so little, but once you describe the construction method the conversation ends and you never see them again.

I had originally designed #2 to be simple and easy to build. Just to see how simple and cheap I can get . This build also showed me just how ridged the box could be. During construction I thought to myself this would probably also be a great off road build. My intent after selling this one was to pursue that route with #3.

Well things did not work out like I had hoped, with plenty of interest, but no purchases because of the lack of knowledge in the main stream public on foamies. So came about my YouTube channel showing people how I built my #2 in hopes of stirring up awareness. Awareness is one thing, but proof of concept is another. You have to sell people on a construction type not commonly known. So my channel has also steered to a foamie in actual use. Not driving down a road like a normal trailer, but showing a foamie being used off road. The theory is this, it is more convincing to the average Joe seeing a unknown construction being used harder than they would use it.

So since #2 did not sell and I was stuck with it I figured lets go with my idea of building a off road foamie .

#2 is quite ridged and had originally just sat on the frame. I found that over the winter that the area between the trailer floor and the trailer was a moisture trap. Also, with the limited towing that I had done with the trailer, the canvas/paint weave acted like sandpaper against the frame paint. This cause rust to form and I had visible rust stains beginning g to show under the trailer. So the next step was to lift the trailer off the frame and add GPW's recommended drip rail. So I purchased some 1"x2"'s and lifted the floor 3/4" and added sheet rock edging strips around the perimeter of the trailer. This was just before this trip....

[youtube]PZSYVVIN5DM[/youtube]

Go to 3:40 of the video, at the point I was airing down for the dirt road surfaces. I had air down from 20psi to 12psi. Also, I had flipped the bottom two springs in the spring pack to lighten the spring rate, so essentially I only have the main spring as a working spring at this time. Stock 12" tires/wheels are being used in this video.

Watching the video you will see the trailer taking some hard blows and bounces. I was trying to hit some bumps hard on purpose to see how the trailer would fair. I some points I feel I over did it a bit, it was easy to do with those small skinny tires though.

After this trip I inspected the trailer for structural damage. I found that at the points where the 1"x2"'s, that I used to lift the floor off the frame, the canvas had delaminated. In most cases the delamination reached about 2" out and up at those points. Some a bit worse and some not at all. A simple fix, but I had to figure out how to prevent this from happening again. After watching my video I could see better the hammering the trailer took and figured that the violent side to side motion was creating enough force to compress the foam and therefore cause the delamination at the support locations. Probably not a concern on normal roads, but a concern for me. The fix to me was two options, more floor supports, or do what I had done on #1 and added a interior frame rail. Frame rail is what I call a 1"x2" or 2"x2" that runs along the interior walls. I feel this frame rail does three things on the exterior wall.

1. It supports the wall from inward forces.
2. It gives the wall a better bond to the floor. Making the glue work in shear in upward/downward forces.
3. It distributes what would be central forces across the floor.

I had left the frame rails out in the #2 build in hopes to keep the trailer light and simplify construction. It would probably do fine if the trailer was not intended to be used in off road conditions.

Also, after that trip I realized that that the 12" tires where worse than I had thought for this kind of travel. In a attempt to soften the ride more on the way out I lowered the tire pressure to 8lbs. Both tires rolled off the bead. The fix? Bigger wheels/tires. The largest wheel/tire I could go with the 4 lug hub was a ST175/80-13. That is a 13" wheel and tires that boost up from 20" to 24" diameter tire. I also had to use a 1" spacer to move the wheels away from the body. This does not sound like a big difference, but it made a huge difference for since the lager tires can absorb much more impact than the smaller tires. I was able to keep these tires a 20 psi on and off road for my next trip. This video opens up with me doing a short demonstration on how strong and light a foamie is, but then goes into the trip clips with the new tires and frame rails installed.

[youtube]qGVTPNeZcyM[/youtube]

I have two big trips coming up next month. One in Northern Utah where we will be following the old Central Pacific Rail Road bed for 90 miles. Then it is over to central Oregon for the Geology Tour. Both trips should put the trailer through it's paces. In fact this weekend I am doing another trailer upgrade to prepare for these trips. In anticipation of extreme uneven roads I am having a 2"x2" steel tube installed that will run the length of the trailer and end at both sides with a Class 3 receiver tube. The front tube will allow me to switch out from a standard hitch to a pintle hitch. The rear tube will allow me to tow another trailer or install a receiver accessory such as a bike carrier. Also, a good extraction point. The tube will also strengthen the trailer since it will give significant strength to the trailers A frame from up/down forces. Also, being attached to all the trailers cross supports will spread pulling forces across the frame instead of at centralized locations on the A frame, which we already know is a weak point on HF trailers.

I post this up because I feel the foamie has some good points. It flexes enough to absorb hard impacts, but is rigid enough to stay together. I feel, with my limited use, that the foamie is/will be a superior trailer for off road service, in most cases. The main problem is that you have to treat a foamie as a foamie. You can't just bolt something to the side and expect it to stay there, unlike other trailers. But in turn, other trailers have to be stronger, which means heavier which in turn becomes a liability to off road use. So I suppose, as of right now, you have to determine what you can live with or without. In time I will be testing out different ideas I have to overcome these limitations. As of now I feel confident in my little foamies ability's.

Flex vs. stiffness. I think the foamie has the best of both of these worlds. With more testing we shall see.

 

[John61CT-TNT]

I want a very stiff robust under-frame chassis, minimum flex in that bottom plane from running along the ground..

I see the five remaining planes as a rigid insulated tent, only needs to be strong enough to withstand the - still pretty considerable at highway speeds - sideways forces from winds.

Uplift forces resisted by strong connection to the floor / platform.

If any heavy loads require bearing up top, then separate metal framing needed for that, the foam shell then should get some additional support from that.

I do not see the foamie structure as providing additional strength to the bottom plane remaining flat and square against the bouncing-on-the-ground forces.

 

[ghcoe]

I do not see the foamie structure as providing additional strength to the bottom plane remaining flat and square against the bouncing-on-the-ground forces.

You wont until you build your box. I think you will be quite surprised at how strong it is.

The body only has to support the trailer on 3 axis not like on a car that has 4 points of contact on the ground. It is like using a 3 legged stool or a 4 legged stool on uneven ground. Which one will work better? There is no frame leverage to the body when you only have 3 points of contact. The body really does not have too much to do.

 

[GPW]

You guys think a half Tubular camper format would be more flexible , more apt to bend than break … ??? I’m thinking heat bent panels , stress free, no kerfing to weaken the structure… glued into a solid structure , then covered … Granted it would look more like Star Trek than Grandpa’s Teardrop trailer ... Seems offroad requires a different type of engineering , favoring Purpose , not trend …

And having competed in RC Off Road racing for years , I’m all for a better suspension than what’s available on most trailers … Gotta’ get out the welding machine … Maybe fabricate a fully independent automotive type suspension on a trailer frame … sounds expensive , but if it's what you need … then you gotta’ do it … asking a stock trailer frame to go offroad is likely more than it was designed for …
Better still , weld up the trailer as a rigid tubular metal cage , cover it with Foam and suspend it with a lot of travel on an adjustable suspension … Suspension needs would change with the amount of weight carried … and roads not encountered .
Just crumbs for thought …

Also from a practical view and similar experiences , projects , like this that require a lot of backyard engineering and one off fabrication can be a considerable drain on your free time and a good bit of your folding money too …. Just sayin’ …

 

[John61CT-TNT]

I think you will be quite surprised at how strong it is.

Not saying it won't add any strength.

Just saying my intended design does not need to count on any, since it already will be rigid-overkill to carry boats and vehicles.

In fact I'm thinking of the foamie living pod accommodating a compact SUV inside.

 

[Projector]

IMHO, FWIW.
There seems to be two aspects to your post, build considerations and customer related.

Couple comments on public perception and sales which all comes down to marketing.
And the 4P's of marketing are price, product, promotion and place.

Price
How much were you asking for it?
And how much do comparables cost?
And how does that compare with the competition?
They came to see it but not convinced it was worth the price?
Imho, since the product is just foam, glue and cloth and thus perceived as economical, the price should reflect this when compared to traditional hard teardrops. Say half cost? Probably has to be much less because your getting much less, or perceived to be so.

Product
Perception of value and or strength/ durability?
Tell you an interesting story that's similar. Pontiac was one of the first to introduce a plastic bumper on the GTO and firebird which they called Endura bumpers. To promote
them, they did a video showing them being hit with a hammer and they didn't damage. Iirc, it was actually Deloreon doing it, who was in charge of Pontiac at the time, and a sledgehammer. This was to get across the point that they were tough and durable when the previous standard was chromed steel. You've done that with your video to some extent but it's not enough to reassure the market and early adoption takes time. It doesn't prove long term durability which is probably the real perception issue.

What compelling reason will they buy your teardrop over anything else on the market? Color, style, features, price, options, durability, etc... So far, results aren't giving you any answers. You have to determine this and come up with a solution. Right now, the market is geared toward more features and or price point. There's lots of competition here with lots of choices.
The Jeep market would be an ideal target here. I think that they would buy into this once you've shown and proven offroad durability. Styled like a Jeep and colors to match could be enticing, and with the right features could sell well.

Price again.
IMHO, a new product, to gain sales and acceptance, has to be very attractively priced and for customers to take the chance compared with accepted standard product teardrop. Or it's advantages are so obvious, price is justified. Maybe no cost financing could help as well as cheap pricing. Rent/Lease to own?

Promotion
To get over the hesitation, you have to get the customer to try and to like the product. New car sales do it with test drives and used to use overnight or weekend take home trials. Some ideas would include low cost rentals like $50 for the weekend. Maybe that's a better business model and more profitable, renting them out. Or no cost financing or other financing deal like half down, balance payments. This has it's issues of course.
How about color match to vehicle?

Place
This one goes with market and location. I could see this ideally being for light weekend occasional use in developed Urban areas like back East with the young adult market if priced right and a well developed recreational area with good roads. Where you're located, the off road warrior isn't going to buy into this type of lightweight product. He's into tough, macho, rugged, heavy. That's the need and perception, I'm tough and I need want something that reflects that and says that. Actually, it has to scream that from 20 ft away, lol. Here in the West, it has to be able to do the Rubicon, even if it may not. Actually, true off roading is common and so a really durable rig is ideal and sought after. Think you would have more and better luck selling converted pickup beds for this application. Or slide in truck campers with so many pickups around. The lightweight trailer and construction can do off-road, but it's not proven long term durable which will take time to prove and show.

Imho, this construction is ideal for lightweight use, occasional pave/ gravel roads and use. More rugged long term use will require more durable construction in all aspects.

Right now, you have a product in search of a market. Usually better to identify the market and develop the product. In others words, who is your customer and what do they want?
Just some thoughts to ponder which could be of use for enhancing sales.

 

[ghcoe]

Thanks all for the comments. Really was not where this thread was suppose to go, but comments are welcomed.

As far as price I will not disclose that hear on the forum, but lets say it is competitive with other similar sized/styled trailers out on the market now. Lets say maybe entry level hiker or trekker. Not sure I would want to be anymore competitive than that since at that time it would not be worth the time involved. I figure there price is coming in so low because they are purchasing materials at wholesale were, as at this moment, am purchasing retail.

To be honest I think the two selling point of the foamie over similar sized/style trailers is it is light weight and that it has insulation. The problem? Those who are looking for trailers have vehicles that can tow bigger trailers and even though a foamie is lighter, you are right it is perception. The people who own vehicles with little to no tow rating are the ones who would be more open to this type of construction. They though are not looking to buy a trailer because they have no idea there is a trailer light enough for them to tow. Others would be more open to this construction type if they saw it being used successfully on the road, which at this point is very little. Even in the homebuilt arena fomies don't have a high regard. At a gathering I had quite a few people amazed #1 was a foamie. They had seen others and where not impressed. They said mine looked like it had been manufactured.

I do have the #1 listed as a rental. So far no takers... Again, people are not aware of the fact that there is a trailer out there that they can tow.

I have been asked to attend a couple of shows to show how a foamie is built. The problem is that they have been too far way for me to attend. So yes promotion would help. That is why I started the YouTube Channel it has a large reach and is being seen by other countries too. Still a infant for what I want it to be. It is however blowing up on me right now and I have made a few coin on it so it is not a lost cause.

I am located in the PNW so I have plenty of rough road to beat on my foamie with and show others how it is holding up. The few repairs/improvements I have done to it so far have been super easy. Even with it going air born as you probably seen in the video... I would like to soften the springs some at a point, but for right now I think it will make the tests that much more intense. I am modding the hitch and strengthening the tongue/frame this weekend for the trips coming up next month. More mods are coming including larger axle, Tongue boxy thing, and roof rack. Sounds ambitious, but I have to appeal to the masses and I think I can.

It's a foamie evolution!

 

[Projector]

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack it. Trying to be helpful on the sales part that you mentioned.

Building for rugged durability that is required off road means reinforce and strengthen. Usually means trucks and they have towing capacity. And the market is selling mostly trucks and SUVs. Why I suggested a slide in foamie. The three top selling vehicles recently are pickups.

I've built four HBF trailers and while strong enough for occasional hauling, rv base for occasional light duty, not as is suitable for a strong platform to build upon for regular offroad use and rigidity, is my experience. Too much flex which will strain and impact the structure, creating cracks and weak or failure prone points.

Am sure you and lots on here have experience and knowledge to help you with offroad. You can't overbuild for off road, within a price of course.

All the 4wd aspects apply, larger wheel/tires, suspension travel, reinforce/strengthen all chassis/stress points.
The impacts and stresses rattle apart steel rigs to failure. You're going to have to continue with lots more of your
Off-road durability testing to prove that foam, glue and canvas is resistant and up to the rigors.
And will have to overbuild/ reinforce everywhere to prove it. Else failures will discredit the whole approach.

Personally I think it will require a full overall frame and more durable exterior skin to be accepted.
Lightweight is less durable, barring high tech costly materials like carbon fiber.
The savings over fiberglass or steel, and light weight is not enough to overcome the disadvantages and perception imho. Not trying to rain on your parade, but bringing up points that will need to be addressed going forward if you wish to build a resistant durable rig, sell foamies and what they may require in the market.

Just my speculation of course, and all open to interpretation conjecture and opinion. YMMV.

I have no pretentions on my build and durability. With it's extra size and stresses, going to baby it as much as possible. Low and slow all the way.
No Rubicon for me, unless escaping a zombie apocalypse.

 

[ghcoe]

Thanks!

Steady as she goes....

 

[JazzVinyl]

Hello George...

Your descriptions have left me a bit confused. A few photos would have been worth a thousand
words.

On build #2 - the floor is made of a sheet of OBX, the bottom of the floor also got the PMF treatment (I didn't realize that from the build videos thus far posted).

And the "inside rail" you speak of, is like the one you are seen preparing in the videos? You added that to #2, after its initial construction?

How many 1x2's to keep the OBX off the trailer, were used? Do the 1x2's also get PMF?

And lastly...larger tires, a stiffer trailer frame, inner rails along the floor....do you think these things will cure the offroad foamie ills? Or is it 'to be determined' in these next two trips?

Appreciate...

--Bruce

 

[ghcoe]

Hello George...

Your descriptions have left me a bit confused. A few photos would have been worth a thousand
words.

On build #2 - the floor is made of a sheet of OBX, the bottom of the floor also got the PMF treatment (I didn't realize that from the build videos thus far posted).
The floor is made with OSB or Plywood. The wall canvas folds under the trailer 2" and is glued to the floor. The rest of the floor is coat. ed with 2 coats of Henry's Dura-Brite Roof Coating

And the "inside rail" you speak of, is like the one you are seen preparing in the videos? You added that to #2, after its initial construction?
Yes and Yes. I had left it out of the #2 build to simplify construction and save some weight. If the trailer is not used off road then it could probably still be omitted.

How many 1x2's to keep the OBX off the trailer, were used? Do the 1x2's also get PMF?
In this build I used 5 spacers. You do not have to PMF the spacers. I would recommend painting them. I painted mine black which matched the paint on the trailer.

And lastly...larger tires, a stiffer trailer frame, inner rails along the floor....do you think these things will cure the offroad foamie ills? Or is it 'to be determined' in these next two trips?
Not sure if you have seen the video on my first trip out with the foamie off road. In this video I was still using the stock tire/wheels and no frame rails where installed https://youtu.be/PZSYVVIN5DM?t=250. You will see that the trailer will go air born from time to time and be shaken violently at times too. The larger tires made a huge difference in ride. The inner frame rails worked as anticipated on the next trip too. If you do not intend to do anything worse than these type roads you should be ok with this setup.

More mods for more rugged roads is planned for this build.
I am currently (as I type instead) installing a 2"x2" tube with receivers tubes welded on both sides. It will replace the current hitch system and allow me to switch out from a standard ball type hitch to a pintle hitch. It will also allow me to slide in a accessory in the back, like a bike carrier or cargo carrier. This modification strengthens the known weak Harbor Freight A frame hitch system which is generally good for on road use, but not up to the task for off road service. This will alleviate the up and down forces on the stock A frame and spread the towing forces across the entire trailer as well. Also, it will add a rear receiver hitch for a bicycle or cargo carrier in the back.

Future plans are even bigger tires (to match the tow vehicles), longer springs (even softer riding), Larger axle (to avoid bending in tough terrain), roof rack, front carrier, inside shelves, pull out kitchen/cook area. Can I do it? I don't know, but I feel confident that I can. So stay tuned.

Appreciate...

--Bruce

 

[John61CT-TNT]

what's OBX?

 

[JazzVinyl]

what's OBX?

Meant to say OSB...

 

[JazzVinyl]

Future plans are even bigger tires (to match the tow vehicles), longer springs (even softer riding), Larger axle (to avoid bending in tough terrain), roof rack, front carrier, inside shelves, pull out kitchen/cook area. Can I do it? I don't know, but I feel confident that I can. So stay tuned.

Hello George,

Looking forward to hearing how the reconfigured Off Road Foamie did for you.

 

[ghcoe]

Future plans are even bigger tires (to match the tow vehicles), longer springs (even softer riding), Larger axle (to avoid bending in tough terrain), roof rack, front carrier, inside shelves, pull out kitchen/cook area. Can I do it? I don't know, but I feel confident that I can. So stay tuned.

Hello George,

Looking forward to hearing how the reconfigured Off Road Foamie did for you.

Well it is a work in progress, slow progress as I work out one thing at a time. Plus all the other things I do.

I just got back from my Central Oregon trip yesterday. The last two trips I was hoping for rougher roads than we encountered. The foamie did keep up with other trailers that where on the first trip just fine. In fact no dust got into the cabin at all, something the other trailers failed at. I like to sleep in a dust free zone, success!

I did encounter some fairly rough roads on the last trip from time to time. Real bad washboard and some rocky stretches. Definitely places you would not typically find trailers. Performed very well even with the smaller tires.

The worst problem I am having right now is the trailer is getting sandblasted on gravel roads. Mud flaps would help, but I do think I will need more than that.

A awning would be helpful since it did rain a bit last trip. So going to have to look at some sort of mounts.

Overall I am quite satisfied with it's performance on and off road as of right now.

I was able to set up and break down camp in under 10 minuets. Even when I had a friend with me that had is gear in the trailer too. I had to reconfigure for carrying his stuff during travel and back once in camp.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Just an “offroad thought” here:

What I’m working on now is a foamie that will be towed behind a 5 speed ninth gen. Corolla most of the time, but may be towed behind our lifted Jeep WJ now and then. I have been measuring, figuring, modifying our frame, and am about to order the Dexter Torflex axle I want (which replaces the old four bolt Torflex axle that was on this 1988 Jayco frame). That is effectively independent suspension for the trailer.

The plan is to use wheel adapters with the new five bolt axle. I will be able to run the Corolla wheels with 195/65R15 tires when towing with that, but will be able to run the Jeep wheels with 255/85R16 rubber when towing with the Jeep. That will allow me to swap from a 25” to a 33” tire, gaining 4” of ground clearance, and it will mean carrying only one spare.

The Torflex and aired-down 33” rubber should keep the trailer from getting beaten to death.

I think running the same wheels & tires as the tow vehicle is a plus, but it takes planning. Trailer wheels normally have zero offset. Both the Corolla wheels and the Jeep rims have significant positive offset. My 1988 Starlight car hauler uses 5 on 5-1/2 Jeep or half ton Ford wheels. I bought it in 1988, from a guy who used it once when he moved to the PNW. He ran a Ford F150 with 235/75R15 rubber, and the trailer was supplied with 235/75R15 “blems” (name buffed off) when new (it now wears 235/75R15 D trailer tires).

I will know more about cost when I finish the project.

 

[ghcoe]

Just so you know Torflex axles do not last long with sever off road use. The rubber will literally fall apart in the tube and allow the arms to pivot. If you want off road independent suspension look at the Timbren line. More expensive, but well worth the money. Timbren have a recoil damper as well as the main damper that significantly reduces wheel osculation on rough roads.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. What I’m working on here will be 99% on roads. I just want to be able to take it up old logging roads behind the Jeep, if we choose. And we won’t be going fast.

I have heard that Torflex axles die with age in 15 or 20 years, regardless of use. The 31 year old Torflex I pulled off that Jayco frame is not “frozen,” but I could not say how close it comes to the original unloaded down angle, or how much “spring” resistance to load remains.

I think if I was building with offroad use as primary purpose (as opposed to the present effort to be very light and cheap), I’d design a frame to take those Timbren independent trailing torsion arms, and just avoid any sort of axle. I wonder what a guy could do if he started with an all coil spring half ton chassis like a 60’s Chevy, and plenty of steel stock near to the welder.

 

[GPW]

Ham , my street ( dirt road ) is just like an off road course , we found the trick to avoid damage is to Go SLOW !!!

 

[Tony Latham]

I think it’s an Internet myth about torsion axles and washboard roads.

I’ve towed mine for many hundreds of miles on rough roads since 2013. It's where we camp. And I live in an area that is trailer rich. Never a peep about a torsion axle failure. Broken springs, yes.

The military runs Torflex axles on all of their utility trailers. I’d love to get my hands on the testing regime they went through to make the decision.

For this current build, I dithered long and hard about axles. Lots of looking at Timbrens. The new chassis has another Torflex under it.

T


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