Tip Top Tier Drop

Thnx Wiz!

Yes, I am interested, ready to start making sawdust as soon as I'm back on my "normal" (ha ha) schedule. I figured the peak height was before the foot of the bed, though I'd like to see something a bit taller inside. I guess I gotta get busy with "CAD", cardboard aided design... cut some scale profiles and see how they work together. I'd love to see more pics just as soon as you pull it from storage for use. But I know it ain't gonna happen this week... brrrrr

Mike in FL
 
Hummm ... I guess using your jargon my CAD models were "Cardboard And Ducktape". :LOL: They are a good idea especially if you use thick cardboard - I also used half inch thick foam - to avoid being fooled by folds that work only with very thin sheets. The problem is you never run out of new ideas to try. In a way the 'Testbed' is just a full size model to help make design decisions.

I find variable geometry (folding) designs much more challenging than any fixed geometry trailer - especially if the door needs to increase in height because it weakens the whole structure (more on this at the end). After years of drawings and models (paper, cardboard, foam and programs), all but the software 'line models' were tossed once I started experiments with the test bed. The line models ignore wall thickness (just like thin cardboard models), but you get a good idea of the major trades. If you are OK with vector algebra or trigonometry, it is possible to calculate the corners, roof vertex, headroom, door height and the like for both the open and closed configurations. I rely on my own calculations because I'm too lazy to learn any CAD, but it has limitations. Anyone know if any free CAD is useful for variable geometry designs? In particular, even if the line models of the open and closed configurations are consistent, you might not be able to move smoothly from one to the other (in some complicated designs)!

With this simple design it is easy to increase interior headroom, because for every inch you add to the closed height you get about two inches in head room! My problem was I made the ability to see over the top of the folded trailer (from the driver's seat of a small car) top priority. That made head room and door clearance a real challenge, but I still consider closed height at least as important as headroom as long as I don't bang my head on the top door jam or roof. We don't need more interior height, but I understand others may. When I get a reasonable tow vehicle, I may go a bit (not much) taller open and closed.

Also, moving the pivot has important impact. I was aiming to build the top as light (flimsy) as I could, so I picked the pivot to accommodate a fixed full back wall (to get maximum rigidity). This means the bottom rear lip of the top needs to fold down to the lower rear lip of the base. However, with the test bed I found the top I built to be stable enough without the full back and opted for making the lower portion of the rear wall removable. When erected, the back lower end panel was removed, turned 90 degrees and reinstalled as the door. It worked OK even though it was a bit wider than the door opening, but it looked a bit peculiar to see a sideways license plate on the door! Right now we just leave the lower panel at home and use a folding door. It might not be pretty, but it is convenient and light. I hope to consider some other options, but this brings me back to my point:

Toying with a 'test bed' told me things I could never learn from my models - like "will the top maintain shape while moving between configurations if I leave off the lower half of the rear wall?'. Yes, I could have 'over built' to make sure it does, but then I would have likely ended up heavy. I am really glad I decided to experiment with a 'testbed' before dropping a bundle of cash into my favorite design (which was not this one).

Given all the added complexity, I guess my conclusion is this: If a folding design does not provide at least a 50% increase in total interior volume AND at least 50% increase in headroom where you need it, try something else. Just my opinion -- others will place their values on other factors.

Have fun! - I did.
 
Hey Wiz, thnx for the thoughtful comments. Gives a lot of good food for thought. I do think I'll have an advantage in the interior lay-out over yours since I'm starting with a 76" wide (ex pop-up) trailer as a base. I do understand the need to see "over the top" as we have towed with both my wife's Intrepid and my Neon.
So, if the lower section rear panel is removeable, and left at home, does that me the aft end of the trailer is open (to some degree) when in the folded configuration? Not sure I completely picture what you're saying.

Mike in FL
 
if the lower section rear panel is removeable, and left at home, does that me the aft end of the trailer is open (to some degree) when in the folded configuration?

No, the rear wall of the base closes the trailer in the travel position.
 
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It’s been a long time since I updated this thread, but I’m very sorry to say that the Tip Top Tier Drop was destroyed in a highway accident in mid June when it was “back ended” while stopped in traffic. The collision not only took out the trailer, but also damaged the rear of my car and totaled the other car (I think it was a Mazda 626). It was a very sad end to an otherwise very good two day camp, the first (now also the last) of 2014.

In an unwanted twist of fate, the “testbed” gave up the ghost in an unplanned destructive test. The whole idea of the testbed was to see how light I could make things without being too flimsy. In the end it was the trailer frame and tongue which suffered the most damage, not the trailer body. I’ve seen complaints that the tongue of the HF 1700# is not beefy enough, but frankly I was glad that it collapsed the way it did because it probably saved our car (and us) a lot more damage.

I am not sure what I will do next, I’m not even convinced I will rebuild any time soon. I was planning to ‘take my time’ building the next trailer while using the Tip Top for camping. Although I could probably rebuild the old design rather quickly, that is not what I want to do with my time. I have no serious regrets other than the accident, but at my age it is becoming more important to do the camping than the building. The time I spent on the trailer building far exceeded the time I spent camping even including the 5300 mile trip last year. I doubt I will put more than minimal time and money into the next trailer because you never get back either if you suffer an accident, regardless of who is at fault. But don’t be surprised if you see a slightly updated Tip Top Tier Drop in the near future.
 
I'll be looking forward to seeing that "slightly updated Tip Top Tier Drop in the near future".
Glad you are okay and things weren't worse.

Mike in FL
 
I rewrote this append several times trying to shorten it, but it has been well over a year since my last append and there is a lot I want to report.

Last year, two days after my last append, I decided to do a ‘hurry-up’ carbon copy of the Tip Top Tier Drop because I figured I had enough time to complete a duplicate before the camping season was over. I was dead wrong. I ran into a long series of unexpected problems with the frame (none of which were encountered with the 2006 kit).....

1- one of the wheels fit one side but not the other, so something was wrong with the axle.

2- the other wheel did not fit either side, so something was wrong with one of the wheels

3- the tongue arms did not align with the hold down brackets on the front cross member

4- the frame was warped diagonally from corner to corner (would not lie flat)

5- the axle could not be aligned (i.e. perpendicular to frame)

6- replacement parts I ordered the first week of Aug were slow in arriving (did not arrived until a few days before Christmas).

You can find the details in my posts in several threads of the “Trailer & Chassis Secrets” section, mostly in “A Tale of Two Trailers”http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=61451. Except for the axle & wheel issues, all the problems appeared to result from poor tolerances, like the difference between these two ‘identical’ tongue angle irons:

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Finding the roots of these problems and developing work-arounds took a l-o-n-g time - ALL of Aug & Sept. I did not realize I had a warp problem until I had nearly finished the base half, so I had to disassemble it several times to figure out the cause. Although not totally conclusive, apparently bending the hold down brackets on the front cross member and force fitting the arms into them caused the warping. When trying to flatten the frame, it would only spring back or warp the opposite way. I was so discussed that I resolved to limit my losses by just finishing it as-is with what materials I had on hand.

It was almost done before I lost all hope of getting any camping in during the 2014 season, totally lost interest and did nothing more than install a thin temporary tarp roof for the winter.
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This spring I replace that roof (nine months of sun caused deterioration along the tarp seam).

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Lacking the heart to disassemble the whole thing to try removing the warp, I decided just to live with the embarrassment of driving around a lopsided eyesore rather than miss any more camping. So I call this trailer the Tip Top Tier Drop -- Pisa Edition (in honor of the famous leaning tower).

Despite my conviction to “change nothing” in order to save time, I could not resist the temptation to try a few modifications. I lowered the tail lights and reconfigured the framing to (slightly) increase the opened height (which led to more problems, but that’s another story). But the big change was to skin the base with foam and vinyl siding (which required adding braces) rather than plywood. I only cover (‘skin’) one side of the framing. On the original trailer the base used an internal frame while the top’s frame was external, leaving the two smooth skinned sides to slide upon each other. That worked really well, but I wanted to try vinyl and foam even knowing the tiers would not slide or seal as well (because of the margin left for the siding ridges). I only had a few lengths of scape vinyl, just enough for the bottom tier sides, not the front, back or top. Although, I used different types for the port and starboard sides, they are the same color.

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Yeah, I know the common street wisdom: ‘vinyl siding will not tolerate highway travel’. This may be true for the staple gun installation used on pre-fab homes, but I used a lot more care and the top partially covers the base in the travel configuration, so I was confident it would not be a problem.

I used half inch thick white foam with foil on both sides, and to my surprise, the unprotected interior side has held up quite well so far. I really like the vinyl, but it does have its down side: Like the original, I can quickly open and close the trailer without help, but the uneven siding does make it more prone to snags while lifting and complicates sealing the tiers.

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After a couple of short trips we took it out on a very long one. With a total of 22 nights and 5 thousand highway miles and the vinyl siding has been totally stable.

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The inside bed width is a bit over 57 inches. When folded the top is only about 3 feet above the frame deck but when opened we have great head room right where we need it (68 inches at the peak between the foot of the bed and door). But, comparing this to a typical fixed geometry (4 foot wall teardrop), it’s about a foot lower when folded yet has about 20 inches more headroom, so for us the extra work of a pop top is well justified.

I have become quite fond of using a tarp top (light, cheap and effective but watch out for tarp seams). I did not install the center sighting strip on the middle of the roof and I really missed it while backing into sites. Without it the tarp top did bow slightly at highway speeds, but it did not stretch the top and it was no problem at all.

I still hate “making the bed” from the end even if I can stand up during the process. Also, access to things stored under the very front of the bed is limited to when the bed is folded forward, so you have to be sure to put anything you might need during the night under the foot of the bed.

Now I need to decide what my new tow vehicle is going to be before I start a new trailer and relegate this one to utility hauling. I’m pretty sure I will be using as much vinyl as I can and that it will be some sort of pop top, but I will be a lot more careful selecting a frame.
 
Glad you have not been put off by the frame problems and still want to build.
 
Great to see it back in action. Such a nice idea and cute looking trailer.

Cant wait to see how the next one turns out. :thumbsup:
 
I finally got around to weighing the Tip Top Tier Drop (Pisa Ed) at the local landfill. The result: 550 lbs (+/- 10 lbs; the scale had a granularity of 20# and vacillated a little). This is just the empty trailer (includes tonge jack but no mattress or any equipment), and a little less than I anticipated. I expected the Pisa Edition to weight a few pounds less than the original, but it now looks like my original estimate was a bit heavy. (That estimate was made by adding up the volumes of various wood parts and applying an estimated density. It gave an estimate of 570# plus 30# allowance for metal hardware for a total of 600#.)

I am happy with the results because it falls within my desired envelope for towing with a 4 cylinder TV and I doubt I can bring the total down much without major concessions.
 
Thanks for sharing. I really like the simplicity and yet great functionality of your design. I have read your thread in full now and noticed that back in 2014 you were looking for a free CAD program which can be used for modeling moving parts. I had the same need and found that in sketchup I could use move and copy tools in combination with layers to create copies of moving parts to view them in separate layers. I also had difficulties learning sketchup until I found (in my opinion) some very good tutorials to learn how to use sketchup here: http://jayscustomcreations.com/sketchup/
Using keyboard shortcuts saves me a lot of time and makes 3D modeling much quicker.

I wish you and yours all the best. Hope to see more of your creative thinking.
 
OP827 wrote
Thanks for sharing. I really like the simplicity and yet great functionality of your design. I have read your thread in full now and noticed that back in 2014 you were looking for a free CAD program which can be used for modeling moving parts. I had the same need and found that in sketchup I could use move and copy tools in combination with layers to create copies of moving parts to view them in separate layers. I also had difficulties learning sketchup until I found (in my opinion) some very good tutorials to learn how to use sketchup here: http://jayscustomcreations.com/sketchup/
Using keyboard shortcuts saves me a lot of time and makes 3D modeling much quicker.
Thanks for the kind words and the tip on Sketchup. The reason I wanted a CAD that does moving parts is to help in dealing with an issure I call "lock down", a situation in which the trailer can be in either of two configurations (open or closed state) but can not move from one to the other because some parts limit movement before the other state can be reached. I call it lock down because I first encountered it with a design in which you could not lift the upper portion because as you lifted the back end, another part of the top needed to first rotate slightly downward (before reversing and raising upward). This is only a problem with multiple pivot designs. One fix was to accommodate the small downward movement with cutouts in the base, and I recall writing a program which displayed all the moving links for various degrees of opening. I also recall there was a freeware program for doing stick figure cartoon characters with multiple pivots which calculated and drew the new locations of connected links as you move one of the joints, but I never got around to investigating it much.

Right now I'm busy with other things, but I'll try to see if I can draw up a stick figure to illustrate the problem. I'll also give Sketchup a try after looking over your tutorial links. Thanks for the tip!


Edit 6/13/2018: I did put together an animated gif to illustrate this over a year ago, but it would not animate when uploaded to my album. The second try (months later) had the same problem. My 3rd try (tonight with a less complex gif as a test) suffered the same fate. I plan to add it here as soon as I can resolve why the post does not animate.
 
I just added the comments below to a thread in the "Foamie" forum. I am adding a copy here because it relates to the overall history behind the Tip Top Tier Drop...

As this will essential be two open “halves”, only attached by a piano hinge at the back and lock down clamps at the front (when traveling); will foam give enough rigidity to keep it from flexing, or do you think I’d need a stick frame (say 2x2) with XPS?

For what it’s worth, here are my two cents:

I don’t worry about the closed state, nor do I consider the key question to be rigidity of the erected configuration (top raised and latched)....

Yes, it is true that a opened pop up does not have the rigidity of the classic tear drop or even that of a simple fixed box trailer, even though the two halves are latched together. This is especially true with a telescoping top because (unlike the base), the top can not have cross corner reinforcement (it has to nest over the bottom). However, my chief concern in designing the Tip Top Tier Drop was always the stability of the top during erection before it is latched to the bottom. Diagonal flexing was my major worry because the top had to be manually raised (by an elderly weakling with no assistance) and that meant holding it in the raised position with one hand while latching with the other. Finding the right balance between stability (rigidity), cost and weight was my aim and that drove me to experimenting with very marginal construction to see what I could achieve.

Manual lifting also put a limit on open height since I had to be able to reach a height clearing the latches. I knew this would be problem with camp sites that “rolled off” in the back, but what I under estimated was how often that would be the case. In fact, many camp site pads have a log back stop (which often ends up under the rear of the trailer) and a steep drop-off beyond it, creating quite a step down off the back of the trailer. We keep a stool handy for such situations, but sometimes that stool is needed just to raise the top.

Your diagrams show the reverse, the top is hinged at the rear, which has an obvious advantage in such a case. Also, your flip-up end and side walls should reduce lift weight, but there are set up exposure advantages with telescoping designs. In any case, I find clam shell designs well matched to manual erection constraints.
 
I just added some comments to this thread
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=70852&p=1236702#p1236702
which compares clamshell and four panel pop-up box designs. I thought it appropriate to add my comments here for readers of the Tip Top Tier Drop Thread. Postal Dave says:
“I just hope that when It's set up at the beach, or somewhere like that, it isn't so light that it gets blown over.”
Along the same line, is keeping the top under control. With a clam shell, one end of the top (front end for mine) is securely anchored at all times. Although I have latches to keep the roof in place while camping or driving, during erection and folding I need to control the loose (rear) end. One worry I have, which may be of limited concern to younger/stronger/taller builders, is this: Any top light enough for me to raise (and hold up with one hand while raising the end panel with the other) is light enough to be a problem with wind gusts.

From my perspective, the box trailer is less stable and less resistant to wind/rain during erection and folding, in part because there are just more steps that take longer to complete. Since 2011, I never had even a scare..... until this year when a very sudden storm hit while I was preparing to depart an open site over looking a large lake. I got things closed OK but I was concerned that the gusts might overpower me.

Is it unreasonable to fear that wet folded panels might drip dry onto bedding? My Tip Top Tier Drop has one folding panel (in the rear) which comes close to overhanging the bed (unless I fold the bed forward) but I have had no drip dry problems so far. Along the same concern, I try to avoid any roof seams/joints/hinges over the bed to avoid leak problems.
 
WizardOfOdds":2x4ebo9q said:
I just added some comments to this thread
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=70852&p=1236702#p1236702
which compares clamshell and four panel pop-up box designs. I thought it appropriate to add my comments here for readers of the Tip Top Tier Drop Thread. Postal Dave says:
“I just hope that when It's set up at the beach, or somewhere like that, it isn't so light that it gets blown over.”
Along the same line, is keeping the top under control. With a clam shell, one end of the top (front end for mine) is securely anchored at all times. Although I have latches to keep the roof in place while camping or driving, during erection and folding I need to control the loose (rear) end. One worry I have, which may be of limited concern to younger/stronger/taller builders, is this: Any top light enough for me to raise (and hold up with one hand while raising the end panel with the other) is light enough to be a problem with wind gusts.

From my perspective, the box trailer is less stable and less resistant to wind/rain during erection and folding, in part because there are just more steps that take longer to complete. Since 2011, I never had even a scare..... until this year when a very sudden storm hit while I was preparing to depart an open site over looking a large lake. I got things closed OK but I was concerned that the gusts might overpower me.

Is it unreasonable to fear that wet folded panels might drip dry onto bedding? My Tip Top Tier Drop has one folding panel (in the rear) which comes close to overhanging the bed (unless I fold the bed forward) but I have had no drip dry problems so far. Along the same concern, I try to avoid any roof seams/joints/hinges over the bed to avoid leak problems.

In the 7 years that I have been camping in mine, (knock on wood) all has done very well. I have some props that I can use to assist me in set-up but I don't find that I really need them, such as what I call "worry straps" that hook from the roof to the chassis when I am putting it up or taking it down in the wind. My roof weighs 70 lbs; but, like yours, it is hinged on one end. Lifting just one end changes the lift weight to just 35 lbs. If I know a storm is coming and I am planning on leaving that day, I usually take it down early. I can still get inside an do whatever I need with the roof down; but, it makes it what we call a "slouchy". I've only once had the folding sides so wet that I slipped a bath towel in between the folding sides, just to be on the safe side. I think you've got more worry from people who don't watch where they're going while they are driving. (Sorry for your loss a few years back; but, you came back and probably better than ever!)
 
WizardOfOdds":1j2t89k6 said:
I just added some comments to this thread
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=70852&p=1236702#p1236702
which compares clamshell and four panel pop-up box designs. I thought it appropriate to add my comments here for readers of the Tip Top Tier Drop Thread. Postal Dave says:
“I just hope that when It's set up at the beach, or somewhere like that, it isn't so light that it gets blown over.”
Along the same line, is keeping the top under control. With a clam shell, one end of the top (front end for mine) is securely anchored at all times. Although I have latches to keep the roof in place while camping or driving, during erection and folding I need to control the loose (rear) end. One worry I have, which may be of limited concern to younger/stronger/taller builders, is this: Any top light enough for me to raise (and hold up with one hand while raising the end panel with the other) is light enough to be a problem with wind gusts.

From my perspective, the box trailer is less stable and less resistant to wind/rain during erection and folding, in part because there are just more steps that take longer to complete. Since 2011, I never had even a scare..... until this year when a very sudden storm hit while I was preparing to depart an open site over looking a large lake. I got things closed OK but I was concerned that the gusts might overpower me.

Is it unreasonable to fear that wet folded panels might drip dry onto bedding? My Tip Top Tier Drop has one folding panel (in the rear) which comes close to overhanging the bed (unless I fold the bed forward) but I have had no drip dry problems so far. Along the same concern, I try to avoid any roof seams/joints/hinges over the bed to avoid leak problems.

In the 7 years that I have been camping in mine, (knock on wood) all has done very well. I have some props that I can use to assist me in set-up but I don't find that I really need them, such as what I call "worry straps" that hook from the roof to the chassis when I am putting it up or taking it down in the wind. My roof weighs 70 lbs; but, like yours, it is hinged on one end. Lifting just one end changes the lift weight to just 35 lbs. If I know a storm is coming and I am planning on leaving that day, I usually take it down early. I can still get inside and do whatever I need with the roof down; but, it makes it what we call a "slouchy". I've only once had the folding sides so wet that I slipped a bath towel in between the folding sides, just to be on the safe side. I think you've got more worry from people who don't watch where they're going while they are driving. (Sorry for your loss a few years back; but, you came back and probably better than ever! It says a lot that you built the same thing again.)
 
I'm thinking about building a foamie very much like the TTTD. Raising and lowering the lid looked like a problem, especially trying to do that while putting in supports and whatnot. I came across this solution -- 12V linear actuators. Amazon carries them for around $200 a pair depending on length from WindyNation. They are kind of slow at .4 in/sec, but that is still less than one min up to down (and vice versa) for all but the longest one (30 in). Placed reasonably close to the hinge you don't need all that much travel and they can lift 225 lbs each -- a pair of them, one on each side for balance -- would be far more than sufficient and they stay locked wherever they are when power is removed. I'm not a salesman for them -- really! -- but they sound almost ideal. Has anyone considered these, or am I missing something obvious?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07957YCM1/re ... ail_3?th=1

geoff
 
After poking around more I found the fly in the ointment. Other threads on this site pointed it out as well -- if you use multiple actuators you have to ensure they work at the same rate. They push with 225 lbs of force, so if they aren't in sync bad things could happen. And replies on the Amazon site from the manufacturer say that the speed of the actuator is load dependent. They say the load has to be evenly distributed to extend at the same rate, but I could see internal friction, wind, ground uneveness, etc, all contributing to an uneven load even if the weight were balanced. And if one were to fail, its lights out for the rig. Back to the drawing board....
 
I have a flat back lifting hatch that we keep up to stand under. It is a nice place to change clothes with curtains around it. I was worried about the hatch over lifting in wind and wanted a convenient way to lock it in the up position. I found broken pop-up canopies in the dumpster at many campgrounds. The locking two piece legs are perfect for this. Just cut to size, attach to top and floor, and the button locks the hatch strongly in position. I hope this gives an idea.

Tt
 

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