ultra lightweight floating popup camper

As others have stated this is a very cool build indeed.

I'm curious about the overall structure, I've never worked with fiberglass but I'm really interested in the idea, the profile possibilities are very enticing.

If I've followed the build correctly.... aside from the window frames, and the sealing strips for the top and bottom shells the entire 'body' is foam and glass - is that correct?

How many layers of fiberglass where used?
 
Uhh, wouldn't a hole in the floor cause it to sink?

nope. the floor itself is buoyant.

Man, that was a lot of trailer-building work for a five-minute event! :LOL:

Hmmm..... next time i'll have to miss a couple of times before making a good shot.

As others have stated this is a very cool build indeed.

I'm curious about the overall structure, I've never worked with fiberglass but I'm really interested in the idea, the profile possibilities are very enticing.

If I've followed the build correctly.... aside from the window frames, and the sealing strips for the top and bottom shells the entire 'body' is foam and glass - is that correct?

How many layers of fiberglass where used?

along with the window frames and seal strips, my floor has some 1 x 4 wooden framing and 1/4" plywood under the fiberglass in the floor. Next build, i won't be using any structural wood like that at all. The underside of BUB, which has nothing but 3 layers of fiberglass over foam, feels just as rigid as the top side, which has 3 layers of fiberglass over 1/4" plywood.

The deck and walls have 3 layers of 'glass on each side (one layer laid diagonally on the deck). the top edges of the walls have 5 layers on each side (for rigidity). The entire canopy, roof and all have only 2 layers on each side. Inside the wheel wells, i think that i put 4 layers on.
Strength wise, i would have been good with 2 layers of 'glass everywhere, but things probably would have bent and bowed a little if someone were to lean on BUB, so the extra layers are all about preventing that.
:beer:
 
In the past I built a 4'x6' fuel tank covering hatch out of corecell and a couple of other pieces out of divinicell for my boat so I'm familiar with glassing techniques and composite construction. When I became interested in a TTT I thought of building a composite camper but didn't want to spend the $$$$$ on the core matierials because of the volume required. The insulation boards are less than 1/10th the cost of corecell and could easily make up for the difference in cost of using epoxy over polyester resin.

I'm a newbie here and am inpressed by the method you used. I'm curious which brand of foam insulation you used as well as if you did some testing to figure out which types don't dissolve from epoxy. If you did testing, did you consider polyester resin to reduce costs? if so did all the different types dissolve from the resin?

What type of glass did you use? I can't really tell from the pics but it seems that you didn't glass the inside, is the product balanced? ie as strong pressing from the outside as from the inside? When researching the build for my fuel tank hatch, I was given the advice to put 2 layers of glass on the top and 3 layers on the bottom and the product would be strong because the 3 layers on the bottom are where the strength is needed yet the top only needs enough glass to protect the foam from being crushed.
 
ktm_2000":1k8bt81l said:
When researching the build for my fuel tank hatch, I was given the advice to put 2 layers of glass on the top and 3 layers on the bottom and the product would be strong because the 3 layers on the bottom are where the strength is needed yet the top only needs enough glass to protect the foam from being crushed.
Poor advice, I would say - I have just been discussing this very question with a race boat builder and the European standard on boat strength suggests that the inner skin should be no less than 70% of the outer skin weight/thickness. I would expect the outer skin to be thicker as it needs to be resistant to 'punctures', which the inner skin doesn't.

Andrew
 
I don't know who's right but here is the thought process which I was given by a reputable boat builder, not me :) which I thought was sound and followed successfully.

Fiberglass works well when used in tension

In the case of a deck hatch which may have substantial loads placed upon it from 1 direction. Load is directed down upon a hatch the glass which is on top of the core is being compressed due to the load and the material which is under the core is being stretched. Beefing up the glass on the bottom increases the products resistance to stretching and thus creates a product which doesn't deflect much.

How I implemented the idea:
I built the hatch by prepping my glassing table with PVA and shooting 3 layers of gel coat in 15 min intervals then waiting 45 min and laying down a layer of 1.5oz mat. The Mat was then followed by 2 layers of 1708 biax cloth and was finished by mixing up some cabosil and trowling it on the area where the core was to go. After the putty was on the core was placed in positon and everything was covered by a sheet of plastic and the core was weighted down. I covered the whole thing with sleeping bags and more plastic and a electric heater was placed under the whole thing to run overnight.

The next day I cleaned everything with acetone layed on 3 layers of 1708 with the last piece being set in poly resin with wax. I then covered it all and with the plastic and sleeping bags and let it go for 2 days with the heater on.

The part came out beatifully for my inexperience and I have had it in place for 3 years. I have had quite a few people on board as well as taken the boat out in rough seas and the hatch is not bouncy at all.
 
ktm_2000":3m4ohd9b said:
...

Fiberglass works well when used in tension

In the case of a deck hatch which may have substantial loads placed upon it from 1 direction. Load is directed down upon a hatch the glass which is on top of the core is being compressed due to the load and the material which is under the core is being stretched. Beefing up the glass on the bottom increases the products resistance to stretching and thus creates a product which doesn't deflect much...
Sure, but the top and bottom skins of fiberglass are like the top and bottom flanges of an I-beam: the bottom is indeed in horizontal tension, and the top in horizontal compression, and it's the combination of the two which provides bending strength. Unless the fiberglass is better in compression than tension, the top needs to be comparable in thickness to the bottom for optimal strength; in the extreme, if you depend entirely on the bottom skin it acts like a hammock and must deflect a lot to provide any vertical support, regardless of its strength. The core is mostly there to keep the skins a constant distance apart, like the web of the I-beam.
 
Here's the guy I got my advice from.... he does a better job than I did explaining the whole thing.

http://bertram31.com/proj/tips/core.htm

onto the point to all this discussion, I think that the guy who put together his trailer has an interesting concept for building and I'm wondering what the ideal build proceedure should be???

I was thinking of building my side walls by gluing pieces of insulation to make one large panel. From there a router could be used to create a slot to run a pvc tube for a wire chase. When ready the outside could be laminiated with 1 layer of 1708. In a second glassing session the inside could receive a layer of 1708 with the mat side down on the insulation, a second layer of 1.5oz mat could then be added on the inside and be put on quite wet and 1/4" birch ply could be added for a pleasing interior. Once the panel was cured it could be cut to whatever size/shape you wanted. I have no idea how the pink insulation bends but it could probably be helped out with a heat gun and one could come up with some interesting shapes and unusual design ideas.

As for the top, it would be a lot more difficult to glass each side and I'm still trying to figure out how I'd do it but for now I'm thinking of connecting the pieces with 1/4" birch ply then adding the insulation on the outside radiusing the corners then glassing 2 layers of 1708 on the top with the first layer covering over the side quite a bit. The whole thing could then be faired to fill in the weave and then shot with one of the high build primers to create a pretty smooth surface ready for paint.
 
ktm_2000":1g4srzi0 said:
Here's the guy I got my advice from.... he does a better job than I did explaining the whole thing.
Sorry - he's writing utter crap. He may well know about laminating but he understands nothing about structures. The idea that one can choose how much tension or compression you get by varying the skin thicknesses is laughable.

The problem with using sandwich construction for teardrops always comes back to the amount of work to get a good surface finish and the difficulty of making the corner joints. It can all be done, but it usually involves enough cost and time that the benefits don't justify it.

Andrew
 
The tension flange acts like the string in an archer's bow and the maximum force that can be developed is limited only by the yield stress of the flange material.

The compression flange acts like a strut and is susceptible to buckling before yield stress can be developed.

meaning, the compression side (top) will fail before the tension side (bottom).
 
I'm a newbie here and am inpressed by the method you used. I'm curious which brand of foam insulation you used as well as if you did some testing to figure out which types don't dissolve from epoxy. If you did testing, did you consider polyester resin to reduce costs? if so did all the different types dissolve from the resin?

I used owens corning foamular 150 extruded polystyrene insulation (the standard cheap pink stuff that home depot sells). I did some tests on it using 3 or 4 different types of epoxy, bought from the local hobby shop. Since Aircraft Spruce Co. sells polystyrene for aircraft composite use, i figured that it's probably good enough for a non life or death application like a camper.
Aircraft spruce had warnings not to use polyester resin with polystyrene without using a special foam sealer. In order to avoid that hassle and because epoxy is stronger than polyester, i just went with the more expensive stuff. If things didn't work out, i didn't want to say "if only i had used...."

What type of glass did you use? I can't really tell from the pics but it seems that you didn't glass the inside, is the product balanced? ie as strong pressing from the outside as from the inside? When researching the build for my fuel tank hatch, I was given the advice to put 2 layers of glass on the top and 3 layers on the bottom and the product would be strong because the 3 layers on the bottom are where the strength is needed yet the top only needs enough glass to protect the foam from being crushed.

if my memory serves me correctly, i used 5.85 Oz/Yd e-glass cloth (#7533 from aircraft spruce). Right now, most of the inside of the cap is not glassed. This will be rectified when the weather warms up. Everything on the base unit of BUB is glassed, and is needed to be for structural reasons.

There are 2 ways to look at the compression/tension strength issue with composits. One is to view the foam as a spacer with negligible strength (polystyrene), in which case you would need more layers of fiberglass in compression than you have in tension. The other way is to view the foam as lending some strength and rigidity of it's own (divinicell) to the composite.

Having my 14 year old nephew destroy test samples, i noticed that EVERY one of them failed when the compression side delaminated from the foam and buckled. More layers of glass in compression would have given that side more rigidity and prevented the buckling. An experimental aircraft builder at my local EAA chapter showed me a test sample of fiberglass over divinicell, which had broken in tension. The compression side of the sample didn't even have a crease where he had his test weight hung. I think that the strength and rigidity of divinicell may have made the results of the boat builder's method match his expectations, but not for anything like the reasons that he explained in the link.

I was thinking of building my side walls by gluing pieces of insulation to make one large panel. From there a router could be used to create a slot to run a pvc tube for a wire chase. When ready the outside could be laminiated with 1 layer of 1708. In a second glassing session the inside could receive a layer of 1708 with the mat side down on the insulation, a second layer of 1.5oz mat could then be added on the inside and be put on quite wet and 1/4" birch ply could be added for a pleasing interior. Once the panel was cured it could be cut to whatever size/shape you wanted. I have no idea how the pink insulation bends but it could probably be helped out with a heat gun and one could come up with some interesting shapes and unusual design ideas.

I'm considering a traditionally shaped teardrop build next, and that pretty much describes, how i would make the walls. I would cut the walls using a circular saw, and sand everything smooth with a belt sander. Glass is really hard stuff, and would dull even a carbide router bit pretty quickly. The router bit would still be able to cut, but a dull bit creates a lot of heat which the foam would contract away from.(move the belt sander a lot to avoid melting foam with it(learned the hard way)). I've also cut composite panels with a jig saw and sawzall. The reciprocating motion causes things to delaminate.


As for the top, it would be a lot more difficult to glass each side and I'm still trying to figure out how I'd do it but for now I'm thinking of connecting the pieces with 1/4" birch ply then adding the insulation on the outside radiusing the corners then glassing 2 layers of 1708 on the top with the first layer covering over the side quite a bit. The whole thing could then be faired to fill in the weave and then shot with one of the high build primers to create a pretty smooth surface ready for paint.

As for the top, i would keep the heat gun away from it. Polystyrene doesn't really soften very much before it just melts or collapses.
My plan is to set my wall panels in vertical jigs, then bend a 1/2" foam roof panel over the profile, securing it with wet micro and coarse drywall screws. I would then apply another layer of 1/2" foam over the first, connecting them with a layer of wet micro, and more drywall screws. After the micro dries, remove the screws, fill the screw holes, then apply fiberglass. Once the outside is glassed, the whole thing can be stood on end(it's not connected to a floor yet), and the inside of the roof can be glassed while standing semi-vertically.

By the way, 1" foam with 2 layers of fiberglass on each side weighs 8 OZ. per square foot. a 4" thick deck with 4 layers of glass on each side would weigh about 20 OZ. per square foot. Using these numbers, a 4x8 traditional teardrop trailer shell and deck could be made weighing just 95 LBS.

Here is a drawing of the suspension i would propose for a trailer this light.

image.php
 
Thank you for getting the discussion back on track!!

You mentioned that you'd cut with a circular saw because reciprocating saw delaminated the skin, I've used that trick before but not because of the delamination, throw-away skillsaw blades are inexpensive compared to router bits.

Speaking of delamination, I'm wondering if you perforated the insulation skin to allow some epoxy to get underneath the skin a bit and create a better bond. Corecell and divinicell have a rough surface that is porous which makes a lot more surface area for bonding. I took a ride to Lowes last night and they had some blue insulation which seemed to have a smooth surface, I haven't looked at what you were using but I'm guessing that it has a smooth surface as well.

As for the top maybe spending the extra cash on corcell or divinicell would be waranted there as it can be bent with a heat gun.

I have extra glass and epoxy left over from my boat projects so I'm going visit home despot to try and find the foam you used and get a piece of 1/4"birch ply. I am going to build some samples and do some destructive testing on them.

I'm problably going to end up with a heavier trailer as I plan on using 1708 biax cloth, it is a structural cloth that has 1.5oz mat stitched to it and is alot heavier than the stuff you are using. It would still be light but would probably be twice as heavy. In the grand scheme of things, what is 100#?
 
coal_burner":3l4w7403 said:
i noticed that EVERY one of them failed when the compression side delaminated from the foam and buckled.
It sounds to me like the failure might have been in the foam - did you get some bits of foam still stuck to the 'delaminated' skin? This is exactly what you would expect using a non-structural foam and is really a failure of the foam right next to the skin, not the foam/skin bond.

Paying all that money for Divinycell or CoreCell is what gets you a structural foam, which really is at least as big a difference from insulation foam as hardwoods are from softwoods - just a different animal altogether.

But we're not really comparing similar structures - if you got a boatbuilder to build a teardrop body that was just strong enough, it would be using foam either 3/16" or 1/4" thick foam with very thin skins and the body would weigh tens, not hundreds, of pounds - but it would cost one or two thousand dollars!

Building an insulation-cored body seems perfectly practical to me - but I would be tempted to use either plywood for the skins (since that is made flat and smooth to start with), or to laminate my own fiberglass sheet on a flat mould (a sheet of gloss worktop laminate) and then bond a foam core to that.

Andrew
 
angib":3ckzj7rl said:
Building an insulation-cored body seems perfectly practical to me - but I would be tempted to use either plywood for the skins (since that is made flat and smooth to start with), or to laminate my own fiberglass sheet on a flat mould (a sheet of gloss worktop laminate) and then bond a foam core to that.
I assume the intention here is to form a smooth exterior surface against the flat mould, then bond the foam core to the rougher (but still approximately flat) other side; the purpose would be to acheive a smooth and flat exterior finish with minimal filler and effort. Right?

What material would be used to bond the foam to the skin, considering that some space filling would be required due to the imperfect surface of the skin?
 
the easiest way to create a smooth exterior surface is to use gelcoat but that brings you down the path of using polyester resin.

When I built my hatch I built a torsion box and topped it with a non-textured countertop laminate. The laminate was waxed 5 times with carnuba wax to create a base which so the product would not stick. I also used a product called PVA which was sprayed on in 3 coats with an hvlp spray gun. The pva created thin film which made sure nothing stuck to the surface of the mold. One side note with pva is that you can't prep the mold overnight because the pva will pick up the moisture in the air and need to be redone. When done the part will lift off the mold easily and the pva can be washed off with water.
 
brian_bp":15587xqq said:
What material would be used to bond the foam to the skin, considering that some space filling would be required due to the imperfect surface of the skin?
A long, techy answer, but someone may want to do it one day, when all the info will be needed.

To apply foam to laminate, it needs to be prepared like structural foam is, with breather holes drilled right through the foam - 1/8" holes on a 2-3" grid is typical. This will be suitable for foam being applied to flat panels or nearly-flat panels - a 3-4ft radius of a teardrop roof would just squeeze into the nearly-flat category.

Structural foams that are to be applied to curved surfaces are 'double-cut'. The foam is cut with a narrow (1/16"?) saw blade, part-way through, from both sides and in both directions. The cuts in one direction would look like this:

double-cut-foam.JPG


If foam is being applied to 'wet' laminate, then a satisfactory bond will be made by rolling a coat of (catalysed) resin onto the foam before applying it. Then the foam must be pressed into place until the resin cures, either by a vacuum bag or by the cheaper alternative someone here has used, of laying a sheet of plastic over the foam/laminate and shovelling a good depth of sand/dirt all over it. Covering the surface with weights (eg, filled buckets, paint cans) would work but they would have to be touching each other all over.

If the foam is being applied to cured laminate (well sanded), then an adhesive is required - usually this is just the laminating resin thickened up with a filler mix (silica and lightweight filler) until it makes a gloopy paste that can be applied to the laminate by spreader. Additionally applying a coat of un-filled resin to the foam is good practice to get the best bond. Once the foam is in place, it needs pressure applied, like above.

Andrew
 
just out of curiousity how many feet of glass do you think you used and roughly how much epoxy cheers man
 
darkghost
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject:
just out of curiousity how many feet of glass do you think you used and roughly how much epoxy cheers man

Just a SWAG, but i think i used about 150 linear yards of 5 foot wide fiberglass fabric. I bought a 200yd roll because that's where the price break was. I probably have about 10 gallons of epoxy actually used on BUB.
There is also about $10 worth of 6" and 12" wide fiberglass tape actually applied.

I need to apply about 6 more yards of fiberglass to finish off the inside. I'll have to see if i can design an ultralight traditional to use up what i have left.
 
I finally went to home despot and bought a sheet of 1/4" birch ply and a piece of 1" pink foam insulation and then did a test layup sunday night. I did 4 samples with the following layup schedules.

All layups were with West System Epoxy and 1708 biax structural glass with the 1.5oz mat side laminated towards the foam.

1. 1" pink foam with 1 layer of glass on either side - No perforation of the surface.

2. 1" pink foam with 1 layer of glass on either side - the surface was perforated of the surface with a paint brush cleaner which left holes that were 1/32-1/16" diameter which were approx 1/2" apart

3. 1" pink foam with 1 layer of glass on either side - surface perforated both sides, 1/4" Birch ply bonded to the woven side to the glass

4. (My Control test) 3/4" Corcell foam with 1 layer of glass on either side, 1/4" Birch ply bonded to the woven side to the glass.

I've beat the bag out of the samples and have destroyed all and here's what I found:

1. The corecell sample is the strongest as well as the heaviest of the group.

2. The foam sample with ply was pretty close in strength, it flexed more and with less force

3. Pink foam samples always delaminated on the side without the plywood

4. The pink foam delaminated with or without the perforations. The glass always delaminated from the surface bond

5. The glass only surface would take a significant amount of effort to create a fair surface.

Conclusions:

1. I would not create the shell of a camper out of the pink foam due to the surface delaminations.

2. I would use the pink foam layups for interior partitions as it is lighter and significantly less expensive.

3. To create a fair surface I would want to laminate 1/4" ply on both sides as the best bond was achieved with that side. Also the 1/4" ply's additional strength seemed to prevent delamination.

I kept some pieces that I cut to see the quality of the lamination, I'll try and post some pics of the profile of the laminations.
 
Cool. I always like more data to help refine my engineering world outlook. Could you post some close ups of the 1708 profile both before and after wetting out?
One thing i noticed while testing some of the 1" by 6" pieces that i cut off the top of BUB's base is that they were about 5 times as strong as my original test samples. The fiberglass on these cut off pieces was wrapped around one edge of the piece and lent enough rigidity to some of the fiberglass to keep it from buckling and pulling away from the foam until alot more weight was applied. When the cut off samples did fail, they first started to bow on the non covered 1" side before twisting and collapsing almost instantaneously.
BTW- my cut off samples were about 2 ft long by six inches wide and covered with 4 layers of cloth on each of the three sides. they were set flat between saw horses, and 45 lb disk weights were hung from ropes in the center of the samples. the rope was padded by a 2x4 and some rags (to keep it from digging in and creasing the sample). The weight was slightly offset to the side that was wrapped in 'glass.
The samples held 135 LBS, but broke when the next 45 LB disk was added.
Another BTW to answer a question posed by Angib awhile back. there was some pink "fuzz" still attached to the back of the fiberglass when it pulled away, so this technically is a failure of the foam and not the foam/glass bond.
 

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