Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

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Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Jack Olsen » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:08 pm

I hope I'm not cluttering the place up. I know there's a huge amount of information already on this board, and I've done some searching and reading.

What have I learned so far? I've learned that because a lot of these projects start on open utility trailers, there's maybe a general over-emphasis on a strong platform. As with larger trailer design, the underfloor reinforcement for a flat trailer is much greater than the underfloor reinforcement needed for a box/unibody design, where the walls and ceiling both play a role in making the floor rigid and strong. If you take away strength/rigidity/bearing issues for the floor -- imagine a trailer that doesn't have to carry anything at all -- all you need is a triangle:

Image

Now, people typically put a grid of steel and/or wood on top of this to support the floor. But it seems to me that a floor in a teardrop isn't subject to particularly high/concentrated loads. There's a mattress distributing the impact of passengers sitting/crouching/lying there. And the rear galley section doesn't support much more than a little cargo.

So, here's my next question. What if -- in theory -- the teardrop itself consisted of only thin (like 1/4") sheet plywood at this point? A 1/4"-thick floor, 1/4"-thick walls, and the curved 1/4" thick roof, all with uniformly-adhered joints -- constant adhesion wherever wall meets ceiling or floor -- without any other framing other than the perpendicular walls fore and aft that would be part of the rear cabinets and similar cabinets for front storage?

At that point, where is the likely cause of structural failure? If you made the walls 1/8" thick, would it be substantially weaker from a structural point of view? I wish I had the sketch-up skills to illustrate what I'm talking about, but it seems like the basic teardrop shape is pretty strong. And aside from someone punching a hole in a wall or slamming a foot down through the floor, it seems to me like the design could be pared down to almost nothing, in some ways.

This is not my image (neither was the previous one), but it seems to me that the rear cabinet support wall -- and a similar one at the very front of the trailer -- both would work to prevent a lateral type of collapse of the structure (along with the roof shape). And the lack of vertical walls at the front and rear of the box make a fore-aft collapse failure unlikely.

Image

But I'm a complete novice to this world. So I'm hoping to learn something here...

And since wood is vulnerable to the weather and other types of rot, how thin could someone go with something like aluminum composite panels? Aside from the lack of insulation in the living space and problems with mounting doors or windows in a 1/8" thick wall, would a teardrop made of only sheets of 1/8" aluminum composite panels be conceivable?
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby ssutton » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:30 pm

Likely you are familiar with semi-monocoque construction. Whereby the load of a body is transmitted by design to the outer skin. This is how most aircraft are constructed and some of the older vintage campers. My 1950 Spartan has a very nimble frame under it compared to the shear size of the camper at 30ft. However, the frame in these campers generally hold up very well over time simply because the body carries the load through the aluminum skin and internal aluminum framework. So, the theory is well proven over time. The tear that I am building now will have this same type of body construction, however, I have elected to build on a very traditional type steel underframe. The frame allows for things like an under carriage water tank, electrical and water routing, insulation, etc.

I know little about most aluminum composites, when I was still working in the aircraft industry we only used them for the floor boards in the passenger compartment. However, most of the common grades of aluminum that builders here are using are not suitable for load bearing and stresses. In the manner these materials are being used to skin and structure it works fine and will not give any problems. But, if aluminum is going to be used for load bearing then the aircraft grades are needed for that. 6061-T6 and 2024-T3 are both good grades of aluminum. I am using 6061-T6 on mine. I do not know if composite "honeycomb" grades of aluminum are load bearing or not?

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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby KennethW » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:21 pm

I am building a FRP-foam board-canvas 5 wide teardrop on a HF trailer with almost no wood. the floor is canvas on the bottom-2"pink(or blue)foam with fiber-reinforced-plastic on top seems plenty strong I did use wood for the galley wall(didn't have to) and I used plastic deck boards on the galley door hinge. I also used 2 closet poles With blocks to reinforce the ceiling(also for hanging things) So far so good.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Fred Trout » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:22 pm

If all you put in as a floor was 1/4 inch ply, it would flex too much and be too easy to punch a hole by some unanticipated knee drop, rock you ran over on a dirt road, etc.

OTOH, if you glued up a panel of 1/8" ply + 1/2" EPS + 1/8" ply you would have more strength and puncture resistance (feel free to substitute 1/4 for 1/8, OSB, Masonite, canvas, etc for ply). Same for the walls & roof.

A foamie is the ultimate in lightweight design but weight is also needed to 'anchor' the structure so it does not blow away or bounce excessively while under tow.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby alaska teardrop » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:58 pm

Welcome to the forum, Jack. :shake hands:

What have I learned so far? I've learned that because a lot of these projects start on open utility trailers, there's maybe a general over-emphasis on a strong platform. As with larger trailer design, the underfloor reinforcement for a flat trailer is much greater than the underfloor reinforcement needed for a box/unibody design, where the walls and ceiling both play a role in making the floor rigid and strong. If you take away strength/rigidity/bearing issues for the floor -- imagine a trailer that doesn't have to carry anything at all -- all you need is a triangle:

Now, people typically put a grid of steel and/or wood on top of this to support the floor. But it seems to me that a floor in a teardrop isn't subject to particularly high/concentrated loads. There's a mattress distributing the impact of passengers sitting/crouching/lying there. And the rear galley section doesn't support much more than a little cargo.


Well, you're learning fast & catching on to some concepts that are usually ignored. :thumbsup:

Two threads that may help in your quest to build a lightweight teardrop without relying on a heavy wood structure:

Northern Lite Traveler - viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991

Minimal chassis - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12220

Thanks for the tour of Willow Springs. Brings back memories of testing there thirty some years ago. :ok:

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Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
Minimalist torsion axle frame: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12220
Alaska Teardrop photo gallery: http://tnttt.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=2014
Glampette photo gallery; gallery/album.php?album_id=2983&sk=t&sd=d&st=0
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby rowerwet » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:52 pm

I'm currently building a huge foamie to sleep six. I used wood for the floor to save time, however you can make laminated floors with a foam core to have no wood.
For walls foam beats everything, it is lightweight, noise and heat dampening, and with a fabric skinskin, puncture resistant.
many foamie builders go with thick panels, 1.5" or 2", but the first guy on here to try it used .75" or 1" and last I heard the tear was going strong.
There are some places you can't beat wood, door jambs, spars, galley cointers, and door latch and hinge attachments. Any other material would be too heavy , expensive, or bulky.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Jack Olsen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:46 pm

Thanks, guys. I'm still wide open to any path through this project, and very much at the listening-and-learning stage. I've ordered some aluminum composite samples and I'm going to do some testing with them. I could add foam and some kind of lightweight panel to an aluminum composite unibody in order improve insulation for temperature and sound. Sandwiching those pieces with adhesive would even improve the overall structure, but I'm still collecting thermal expansion numbers for the different materials. Delamination is not a good option.

Foam with a steel or aluminum frame is another possibility. It could be skinned with FRP and then covered with a vehicle wrap to get the look of matte aluminum. As I understand it, that would also reduce the UV risks if I go with off-the-shelf FRP instead of Filon. But I've also got some FRP and Filon samples on the way. More to learn. More to test.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Shadow Catcher » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:18 pm

Yes it can be done. Ours is an all aluminum frame and the body is 1 X 2 X 0.06 aluminum tube
616055951158160
If you use Compsodek for the floor and either a Filon or aluminum exterior and composite or aluminum (could be anodized) interior and cabinets (Champion Door makes very nice ones there is no reason you can't other than $$$.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby canned o minimum » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:08 pm

Just my 2 cents: Flooring made froma hollow core door. ( Which is typically honeycombed with cardboard?) Goodn ole Rolly Nelson uses it fer his teardrops and I have one of em... works jus FINE !

I've always been of the mindset that the "cabin" is sorta a unibody and is its' own structure ( and a sound one) . The use of a heavy undercarriage ( trailer) really is not necessary.

I am NOT a structural engineer by any means, but I've built my share of structures ...
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Jack Olsen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:43 pm

Shadow Catcher, that camper looks great! I don't know if it should be a compliment, but it looks like it was manufactured, not DIY. :)

I have an idea I'm thinking about for the floor that I'm going to do some tests on later this week. I'll report back here about the possibilities of all-recycled plastic. What I have in mind might work, and might not.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby GuitarPhotog » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:45 pm

Keep in mind that you are going to need some structural members to support door hinges, the hatch hinge, and windows. And any cabinetry that you install. You can't screw into foam or composite walls without some structure behind it.

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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Jack Olsen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:44 pm

True. But structural adhesive can hold just about anything. It's slowly replacing welding in automotive assembly.

But like with welding, it can be hard to spot a less-than-optimal adhesive bond. By the time a screw is all the way in, you pretty much know if you got it right.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Shadow Catcher » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:51 pm

It was the 7th and last one built by an underfunded start up company, we also owned their first. My wife and I had a lot to do with the design of this one, she designed the cabinetry in the galley and I supplied most of the fixtures.
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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby GuitarPhotog » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:33 pm

Jack Olsen wrote:True. But structural adhesive can hold just about anything. It's slowly replacing welding in automotive assembly.

But like with welding, it can be hard to spot a less-than-optimal adhesive bond. By the time a screw is all the way in, you pretty much know if you got it right.


And everyone has the tools to insert a screw correctly. Not everyone has the tools or knowledge to prep, mix, and apply modern structural adhesives. Nor are they affordable for small projects. A better choice might be one of 3M's VHB tapes. Not cheap, but easy to use and pretty easy to tell if it's right or not.

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Re: Very light and no wood at all -- possible?

Postby Henry Benner » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:01 am

The strength and lightness of coroplast has always intrigued me. It reminds me of bamboo, one of nature's strongest and lightest building materials.

I've wanted to make coroplast beams and laminated sheets before but could not find a way to glue sheets together. A floor made up of 3 or 4 thicknesses of coroplast would be about 4 times lighter than wood.
But lately I've tried using some of the "super" tapes and glued canvas and believe that it might be feasible to re-visit the coroplast idea. Amazing what some people are doing with it. Check out this coroplast boat: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-coroplast-boat/

In my own trailer the floor is 1/4" fir plywood and is only doubled up to 1/2" where I actually walk or stand. Not as rigid as 3/4" plywood but much lighter.
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