SawStop

[GerryS]

$80 plus a blade is still a lot cheaper than a trip to the ER. If you use the tool correctly you should never need to replace the cartridge.

I've wanted one of these since I first saw the technology. What I am more surprised by is that the other guys didn't use the technology....which is of course what saw stop wanted. Which is why we now have them as their own brand.

I'm not sure how you could stop the blade fast enough using any other kind of brake.... I'm curious what Bosch has done...

From my understanding Saw Stop isn't willing to share the technology so other manufacturers are at a loss developing a saw that won't cut a hot dog.
If they were really concerned about saw safety they would license their technology to other manufactures.
Personally all the safety equipment in the world isn't going to save someone who has unsafe safety practices.
I purchased my (new at the time) Rockwell Unisaw in 1973 and worked as a Cabinetmaker since 1967 and have all 10 fingers without ever using a Saw Stop table saw.
My Unisaw is a fine piece of equipment that's about twice as heavy as any new saw and keeps on going.
They can keep their hot dog saws as far as I'm concerned.
Danny

That's how they started Danny. They took their idea to a number of makes of saws and were sent walking. Not interested...get lost kid, you bother us. So they started building their own.

Now, they've got a line of saws and investments they've made.

Yes, competition is good...drives prices down and drives innovation. I'm still a fan of their system. Something as violent at stopping a blade and retracting it As fast as these systems do...I don't know if I trust a "reusable" wear item. The internal stresses have to inherently be limiting. The physics of E=MC^2 apply not only at the atomic level, but at the macro level as well.

[Ned B]

I'm a hobbyist woodworker, have about 15 years under my belt, I don't own a sawstop, but have watched this discussion in the various forums I'm a member of. At first Sawstop was seen as an intrusive upstart, now they're a respected manufacturer. If I had the $ I'd certainly buy one to replace my contractors saw in a heartbeat, primarily based on the whole 'cheaper than an ER visit' side of things.

[VijayGupta]

From what I remember, Steve Gass, the Sawstop inventor, is a patent lawyer. After developing his technology, he filed numerous patents that would twart anyone else from doing anything vaguely similar not only to saws, but to a number of power tools. Then he went to the major manufacturers to get them to buy into his inventions at some unknown, but likely significant royalty. They all balked.

Then he tried to get a law enacted that new saws HAD to have this technology, in essence giving him a government-created monopoly on the market and more $ in his pocket.

Finally, he went out on his own and built the SawStop saws.


I don't have an argument with the technology, just with the way he went about.
"First, let's kill all the lawyers." - Wm. Shakespeare.

Bosch apparently has adapted their air-bag technology to do the same thing.

While $80 is a deal compared to amputation, $80 + $120 for my ruined blade is a fair chunk for a false fire.

I, too, have a Unisaw (ca. 1982) and all my fingers. I did wish there was a way to retrofit a good riving knife on it.

From my understanding Saw Stop isn't willing to share the technology so other manufacturers are at a loss developing a saw that won't cut a hot dog.
If they were really concerned about saw safety they would license their technology to other manufactures.
Personally all the safety equipment in the world isn't going to save someone who has unsafe safety practices.
I purchased my (new at the time) Rockwell Unisaw in 1973 and worked as a Cabinetmaker since 1967 and have all 10 fingers without ever using a Saw Stop table saw.
My Unisaw is a fine piece of equipment that's about twice as heavy as any new saw and keeps on going.
They can keep their hot dog saws as far as I'm concerned.
Danny

[Tom Kurth]

Yes indeed, what Vijay said only in capital letters . . . with exclamation points, too. Here, let me do it: RIVING KNIFE!!!!

In 40+ years of woodworking of one sort or another, a good portion of it as a full-time cabinetmaker using table saws on a daily basis, EVERY injury I've had with a table saw could have been prevented with a good riving knife and Sawstop has a good one. The one that came with the Grizzly in my home shop looked like it was thrown in just so they could say they provided one, despite the fact that it DIDN'T EVEN FIT THE SAW. I would have had to make adaptations to use it. Many riving knives that are provided stick up above the blade meaning you have to take them off to cut a rabbet or dado. Unless it is easily removable and as easily replaceable, ALMOST NO WOODWORKER is going to ever replace it once it has been removed.

You have to be foolish or quite irresponsible or grossly inattentive, IMHO, to run your finger into a running tablesaw blade. But it only takes a momentary slip of attention for kickback to occur. When it has happened to me, it has always been my fault. Maybe not because of some gross safety violation, but just that momentary lapse or a lack of judgment based in frugality that lead me to try to cut that warped piece of plywood (from the framing days--is there any other kind of sheathing plywood?).

If the saw manufacturers were serious about safety, they would band together to make a truly effective riving knife, patent it, and then license it for free or for minimal cast to any maker who wants to use it. My $.02.

Best,
Tom

[halfdome, Danny]

I've never had the need for a riving knife as I select stock that won't go wonkie on me.
I stay away from Alder as it seems to have a lot of internal stress waiting for someone to let it loose.
I always rip hardwoods 1/8" over and run the edges through the planer to clean up the saw marks, makes a nice finished product.
I was on the table saw for most of the day today using my feather boards and push sticks without any problems.
It was a enjoyable day.
I think a lot of people get injured, partly, from using dull saw blades and not listening to the saws warning sounds until it's too late.

This is the shape of push stick I've been using for years, made out of 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood.
The original is a copy of ones used in San Diego Cabinet shops & shops in this area.
It exerts more downward pressure where the other one allows the user to hang on to the fence.

What VijayGupta said sounds close to what I read somewhere about Sawstop .
Danny

[capnTelescope]

+1 what Vijay said. I knew about SawStop's machinations when I bought my saw. I decided to hold my nose and go ahead. Hooray for Bosch for introducing some much needed competition. My understanding of some of what I read is that Bosch is part of an industry group of "everyone except SawStop" to share their technology. We'll see.

"First, let's kill all the lawyers." - Wm. Shakespeare.

+1 to that, too.

I've never had the need for a riving knife as I select stock that won't go wonkie on me.

With your years of experience, that's something you know how to do that I don't, as a part-time hobbyist. Having started with a saw without a riving knife, When I made that first rip cut on the new SawStop, my eyes were opened. It was like the first time I used a featherboard. It was something that was obviously better and safer. I have my riving knife installed whenever possible.

Stay safe, everyone.

[tony.latham]

Riving knife?

On my first build I used my old Dewalt table saw without a riving knife to kerf-cut numerous foam pieces for the insulation in the roof. Lots of kick back. Bring it on, show me what you've got (and so what, it's foam, right?) No significant damage to any foam pieces. I think previous to that, I'd experienced kick-back with that saw a couple of times. Just infrequent enough to get a bit complacent.

On the second and third builds, I've used my Sawstop equipped with a riving knife for the same task and zero kick back. (BTW, all the foam dust ends up in my Thein top-hat dust collector).

T

[Java Jack]

Having worked in Technology for over 20 years for both big and small companies, I know very well how companies blatantly steal ideas and technology from on another.

I have no issue with the guy seeking patents to thwart competition. I think trying to use laws to force the technology is shady but trying to prevent a big company from stealing your idea to circumvent your paying you I think is completely within scope.

I have seen big companies squash good technology from a little guy just because it was a threat to their revenue stream. If he shopped his technology around and got no takers, that happens. Sometimes the technology provider wants too much, other times, the big boys throw their weight around just because they can. They demand all the margin and want to give the guy that does all the heavy lifting pennies. I am dealing with that very situation right now in my own industry.

So, Kudo's to him for bringing the technology to market when the big boys wouldn't.

[MtnDon]

Remember Robert William Kearns. Who?

The guy who invented intermittent windshield wipers. He invented and patented intermittent wipers. Then had to sue both Ford and Chrysler for patent infringement after he tried to interest them in the invention. They declined but stole the idea. It took years but he won both cases and received millions in settlement.

So I don't really blame the Sawstop inventor for anything he has done.

How long will it be until the Chinese see some profit potential and rip off either Sawstop or Bosch or the group they belong to?

[capnTelescope]

I don't really blame the Sawstop inventor for anything he has done.

The only part I didn't like was where he lobbied to get Kahleefoornya to pass that law. That would be Crony Capitalism, and I'm agin' it. Apparently the folks he lobbied didn't like him that much. I'm glad he invented the flesh-sensing technology, and he deserves to make a pile of cash from it. He even got some of mine. It is a better mousetrap.

[GerryS]

I don't like the fact he tried getting more legislation either. But, if I owned the patent, I'd do the same thing. As brutal as it is, that's the game and how it's played. Don't blame the player...the real problem is the people who make the rules. Kalifornia is a good example of why over regulation is such a bad idea. That 1/6 of the worlds economy is shrinking....what they are doing is not sustainable..

Sadly the idiots there who wanted it are now feeling burdened by it, are moving to other places like Denver, and are taking the ideology that made their home unaffordable with them spreading the disease.

[capnTelescope]

Sadly the idiots there who wanted it ... are moving to other places ...

They chased out the rest of us who didn't want it, too. But you're right, I see it all around. Now that I'm out of there, I think AZ should build a border fence to keep 'em in there.

This is getting dangerously close to talking politics, and I apologize for leading this discussion in that direction.

Stay safe and free!

[rebapuck]

I am even less than a casual, once a year or two hobbyist so I have a question. What the heck is a riving knife?

[tony.latham]

I am even less than a casual, once a year or two hobbyist so I have a question. What the heck is a riving knife?

I like damn-good questions. Until I bought my SawStop, I didn't know either. It's a scimitar or schthe shaped piece of steel that sits behind the blade and prevents the rear teeth from grabbing the curf and turning your piece into a projectile. There's about 3/16" gap between it and the blade. The top of the knife is the same height as the blade. I don't know why they call it a knife, it doesn't have an edge. Perhaps the leading edge is beveled but it's not sharp. It raises and lowers with the blade and I've never felt it was in the way like blade-guards are. I think by law new table saws have to have 'em.

T

[aggie79]

They help prevent this: