Hey Russ How you doing?

[mikeschn]

"Mike wrote:"Now the only situation is that of sleeping inside a small trailer with no windows open. The the trailer is small enough, and airtight enough, one could run the risk of asphyxiation"

Well when you think of the fact that with the blue flame going off 2.5 hours after I turned it on went off because of the oxygen sensor, that yes with the new force air furnace being much safer that it has been proven now that my trailer with the vent (accidentally) closed that oxygen can be depleted inside a cargo trailer. Think what that will do to a sealed small tear.

A lesson has been learned right? I am here to talk about it.

What's your plan to bring in some fresh air?

Mike...

[southpennrailroad]

"Mike wrote:"Now the only situation is that of sleeping inside a small trailer with no windows open. The the trailer is small enough, and airtight enough, one could run the risk of asphyxiation"

Well when you think of the fact that with the blue flame going off 2.5 hours after I turned it on went off because of the oxygen sensor, that yes with the new force air furnace being much safer that it has been proven now that my trailer with the vent (accidentally) closed that oxygen can be depleted inside a cargo trailer. Think what that will do to a sealed small tear.

A lesson has been learned right? I am here to talk about it.

What's your plan to bring in some fresh air?

Mike...

The vent is my only option. I have a 2 inch hole in the floor in the rear but that was suppose to be for the fresh water drain. The door has a fixed window. Once I insulate for next year I will use the vent more.

I also think that I will be able to keep the 16 gal FW tank full for the winter next year now that I have heat on the floor area.

[southpennrailroad]

Well I just met the new owners of my sons in laws old house buyers. Nice couple. The agree that the signing is going to take place on the 21st of January. This moving is just so fast.

The theory is that because houses are not selling that when a sale does come up that the people doing the inspections are so free that they jump on the jobs that do come up. So that is the case here.

Couple are from WV. and he was married and his former wife sent their house into foreclosure and he met another woman who is into a good job. They plan on marrying so her house in WV is being rented out and she is buying this house.

Anyway I am alerted to the date so plan on staying until ink is on the paper. Both parties agree and I will be gone the day B4 the signing. They already know I am here o everything is fine. I save on driving around and using fuel for this bad time of the year. Every penny counts.

Oh!I do help get things done to earn my stay such as let people in and paint and some electric work that needs done.

And now that I have a furnace I feel much better. I still don't hear no more dripping.

[southpennrailroad]

Got to ask? Planning ahead and all, When I tear off the luan to insulate behind the walls should I install carpeting on top the luan or would that just harbor a place for water to be absorbed by or would it help.

[mskobier]

Russ,
Sorry to hear that you will have to be relocating again. I am sure you already have something in the works.

I'm currently in the process of re-wiring and insulating my trailer. Hope to get something done tomorrow if the weather holds.

I have started putting 1" white EPS in my walls. I cut it to fit snugly, then had to split it in half length ways so I can get it behind the lip of the wall studs. The studs in mine are sort of U shaped with flanges on the open part of the U. The U faces in on my CT. The plywood is screwed to these flanges. I have also cut and fit foam strips to the inside of the U to help keep the metal heat transfer down to a minimum. I also plan on putting a vapor barrier inside the wall between the plywood and the metal studs/insulation. This is primarily to cut down as much air movement as I possibly can, and to place a moisture barrier between the metal studs and the plywood. That should take care of any possible moisture damage down the road. Any moisture that condenses (not really expecting any) on the aluminum skin or on the outside of the plastic will drain down the walls and out the botom of the walls under the trailer.

Most of the ceiling will have 1.5" of foam in between the roof bows. On my ceiling the U shaped metal bows have the open part of the U facing towards the roof sheet metal. I am still considering filling the inside of the U's with spray foam to eliminate that void space. I will then screw a thin plywood to the metal ribs to close it all up. The corners where the 1.5" ribs transition to the 1" walls will only get 1" of foam. It will also get a radiant/vapor barrier between the plywood and the ribs/insulation.

The front will be the most difficult part to insulate. On my CT, the front bows out approximately 6" and has reinforcement braces running horizontally across the front that the plywood is screwed to. I am thinking I will install some vertical wood strips on the back of the braces so I can insert foam in between the braces. That should close the front up nicely. This appears to be the most difficult part of the insulation job.

After the walls and ceiling is finished, then the doors get removed, dismantled and any void spaces filled with foam. That will complete the insulation installation. I haven't decided if I will do anything below the floor at this time. The floor will get a layer of short nap indoor/outdoor carpet primarily for looks and to keep the wife from getting cold feet!

I built a hot wire foam cutter, but it wasn't necessary. a good sharp snap blade utility knife and a little dish detergent and water in a spray bottle for lubrication would have worked just as well. No need to get too fancy. Its all behind the plywood anyway.

The carpet on the walls would add some insulation value, and decrease any reflected sounds inside the CT. I do not know how much additional insulation value it would add.

Please keep posting the run times and temperatures inside and out. I am really interested in the amount of time the furnace runs versus the outside temperatures. Once you finally get it insulated, those numbers can again be collected and compared to see just how cost effective the insulation was. I chose to use the white EPS insulation board over the pink or blue insulation board primarily due availability and cost. In pricing the different insulations, The white was the cheapest and the blue and pink were almost twice as expensive. The white is supposed to be about R4.5 per inch and the pink and blue about R5-R6 per inch. With the size of ouru CT conversions, I really do not think it would make much difference which was used. I could be wrong though. I know that in comercially manufactured travel trailers, they generally use white insulation sandwiched between sheets of thin plywood to form the walls and ceiling.

Stay warm
Mitch

[southpennrailroad]

Thanks Mitch

I see that you are doing the same but your at least in a house.

I am going to use the white 1" board and I also was thinking of putting in a vapor barrier but Rich from Atwood Furnaces said that Styrofoam is used to keep water in a Styrofoam cup so it would stand to reason that it in itself would be a vapor barrier so why bother putting up plastic. Also campers are made like that as well. They don't use plastic. Alum skin outside, Styrofoam and then luan inside is how they build their trailers. I have seen people cut out holes in their trailers to add new access doors showing the discarded round cut outs and they are built like that. Only difference is that they have it all as whole insulated panels. nly difference is that ours will have a slight gap. And me being in the window business, I see the air gap as a thermo barrier. But in a trailer that may not be that good of an example. However Houses are not that airtight either. Consider the house, the air space between the outer plastic wrap and insulation between the plaster board and outside plastic house wrap. Maybe by putting the plastic inside all we are doing is bringing in the skin/cold surface closer inside. That means the cold will be right up against the wood. Also by putting up the plastic we are cutting down the heat from reaching the Styrofoam so it can't keep warm as much and it will absorb less heat to keep itself warm so moisture will be absorbed on it causing mold. No I think leaving the Styrofoam close to the inside heat w/o plastic will cause it to absorb the heat so that the Styrofoam will stay warmer so that condensation will not settle on it.


If you do use plastic consider getting double back tape to help hold it in place so it would be tight like that plastic shrink wrap. This way it might cut down on the wrinkles. I'm not going to use the plastic. Was thinking about it but not going to do it.

My studs have the "U" studs with the flat ends facing out. That is consistent in the beams as well. The heat rises enough to keep all the beams warm so water on the ceiling is not an issue. With the blue flame it was a problem even the wood was staining.

Day three same tank.

I also moved my thermostat up to the next notch. I think that is my comfort zone. I have it marked and won't touch it any more. Suspect the temps are a little higher outside this morning but should the temps drop into the single to - digits in February as they always do then the furnace will just kick on more. I will keep a note on that. I guess I will be doing this every morning until spring. I am up every day anyway.

27 out / set to go on at 62 / set to go off @ 68 That's my comfort zone

1. 5:27 am on. 5:38 am off. Run time 11 minutes
2. 6:06 am on. 6:20 am off. Run time 14 minutes
3. 6:47 am on. 6:59 am off. Run time 12 minutes *
4. 7:28 am on. 7:39 am off. Run time 11 minutes

It looks like by just raising the temps just slightly up from yesterday that the furnace is going to run three times in two hours. Yesterday it ran just slightly once per hour.

Note: I don't think I had the vent open yesterday when I was taking the test results. Today The vent is open on the first two readings 1.-2.. *On the next two cycles 3.-4., I will have the vent shut. Seems the on time dropped by 2 min with the vent closed. But what is up with #1.? Why did the furnace go on at 64? also the vent closing only caused the furnace to save only one minute of off time.

Also I am getting to actually guess now how long the on / off cycle is and writing it down b4 it happens. I am usually off by .05 - 1 min.

[mskobier]

Russ,
More usefull information. Keep it coming please.

I do not recall for sure, but in one of your previous posts you referenced how many times per night you were getting up to turn the blue flame on. I do remember you stated you were running it for about an hour each time. I do not think you said how long it was between runs of the blue flame. I do think you are correct in that your fuel useage will probably be less than with the blue flame. It will definately be more comfortable and the heat will be more consistent with the new furnace.

You are correct in that I am in a home. Actually, I consider myself very fortunate and truely blessed that my wife and I have a very good jobs. With a little luck, in just a few years, we will be completely out of dept. Then a lot of worrying about the economy and such will go away. As long as one of us can still maintain full time employment, we should be able to make it. Then our cost of living drops through the floor. That will be a very good feeling! However, with the way the economy currently is and will be in the foreseeable future, all of that could change very quickly. That is one of the reasons your experiences in your CT is of interest to me. At least, if things do go south, with our CT conversion, we will still have a roof over our heads. There are an awful lot of people who are not that fortunate. Before I started the CT conversion, I had considered just buying a small travel trailer. Unfortunately, I did not like the quality of construction that I was seeing. So I went the CT conversion way. Minimal creature comforts built on a strong solid platform!

The primary reason I wanted to use a vapor barrier is to protect the plywood walls from whatever moisture finds its way between the plywood and insulation/frame. I know the sheet plastic really gives no insulation value. Its main purpose is to protect the plywood walls from condensation on the steel studs and cut down on what air movement there could be around the EPS insulation sheets. Remember, my trailers wall interiors are open to the outside air under the trailer. I have not fully decided to use the plastic sheeting. I could just use plastic tape over the insulation seams and over the steel where it contacts the plywood.

In looking at the times and number of minutes of each run cycle, it appears that so far you are accounting for only about 2-3 hours of use out of a total of 24 hrs per day. Assuming you are not shutting it off during the day, you are running the furnace about 25% of the time or about a total of about 6 hrs per day. I am sure it does not run nearly as much during the day, but those numbers have not been posted. With that said, you are currently using a little over 1 gallon of propane per day. Again, I think this number is significantly higher than it actually is. So you are now into this for approx three days. Again with the assumptions that it runns the same during the day as it does at night, you will have used about 3/4 of a tank of propane. about 3 gallons. assuming the remainder of the time it only runs for less than half the time it does at night. You are somewhere near 1/2 a tank opf propane used. It will be interesting to see how long it actually takes to use up a tank of propane.

Have you been able to recharge your battery off of shore power or your generator? Using the asumptions above, you should have used about 63 amp hrs out of your battery. Again assuming you have no other dc loads (lights, etc) on that battery. Again, probably less than that with the probable reduced run time of the furnace during the day. You may want to consider recharging the battery if you have not.

Something else to remember about bateries and very cold weather. A fully charged battery generally will not freeze unless the temps get very very cold (sub zero). As a battery discharges, the temperature where a battery will freeze goes up. I forget the estimated numbers, just remember it takes less cold temps to freeze a battery the more discharged it is. With it now being the middle of the winter, and since your heating system now relies on your batteryto work, you may want to consider keeping your batteries as fully charged as practical. Even just recharging them for one hour per day will really help keep the battery from freezing. Now that you have reliable heat, you may also want to consider discontinuing the use of the DC electric blanket and hooking the batteries in parallel to decrease how much each battery gets discharged between recharging cycles.

I do understand the concept that if one battery is weaker than the other you may shorten the lifes of both. If you keep the batteries chaged regularly, this should not be a problem. at least through this winter. You could also install a battery isolator switch like they use on boats to switch between the two batteries.

Well, I better get going. I need to go purchase new tabs for my car. It's a fairly large fine here in Wa state if caught with expired tabs.

Take care
Mitch

[southpennrailroad]

Thanks Mitch

"The primary reason I wanted to use a vapor barrier is to protect the plywood walls from whatever moisture finds its way between the plywood and insulation/frame. I know the sheet plastic really gives no insulation value. Its main purpose is to protect the plywood walls from condensation on the steel studs and cut down on what air movement there could be around the EPS insulation sheets. Remember, my trailers wall interiors are open to the outside air under the trailer. I have not fully decided to use the plastic sheeting. I could just use plastic tape over the insulation seams and over the steel where it contacts the plywood."

As said earlier. I personally think the moisture is from inside. Once I get the insulation up, I will most likely save on fuel and still have moisture in the trailer. I will probably have to have the vent open more and longer. The trade off for sealing in the trailer more. "Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Learned that in science when in third grade.

"In looking at the times and number of minutes of each run cycle, it appears that so far you are accounting for only about 2-3 hours of use out of a total of 24 hrs per day. Assuming you are not shutting it off during the day, you are running the furnace about 25% of the time or about a total of about 6 hrs per day. I am sure it does not run nearly as much during the day, but those numbers have not been posted. With that said, you are currently using a little over 1 gallon of propane per day. Again, I think this number is significantly higher than it actually is. So you are now into this for approx three days. Again with the assumptions that it runs the same during the day as it does at night, you will have used about 3/4 of a tank of propane. about 3 gallons. assuming the remainder of the time it only runs for less than half the time it does at night. You are somewhere near 1/2 a tank of propane used. It will be interesting to see how long it actually takes to use up a tank of propane."


Because everything is now constant Furnace controlled by the thermostat, I am just waiting to see just how long it does take to run out. That will tell me just how much I am saving, staying the same or using more. I was always using between a week to nine days for the propane to empty out. I hope at least a week is what I am looking for. In what your saying is true then I should be at 1/2 way and that I started at 4 pm on Monday so I should be out by Sunday night. We will keep going and see. It's not like I have a choice.

"Have you been able to recharge your battery off of shore power or your generator? Using the assumptions above, you should have used about 63 amp hrs out of your battery. Again assuming you have no other dc loads (lights, etc) on that battery. Again, probably less than that with the probable reduced run time of the furnace during the day. You may want to consider recharging the battery if you have not."

I have been on AC for the whole time. I suspect I will be on generator in about two weeks so will be partially on gen/DC then so usage is not calculated as of yet. Enjoy while I can. Once I get back out from this safe haven I will make notes then.

Something else to remember about batteries and very cold weather. A fully charged battery generally will not freeze unless the temps get very very cold (sub zero). As a battery discharges, the temperature where a battery will freeze goes up. I forget the estimated numbers, just remember it takes less cold temps to freeze a battery the more discharged it is. With it now being the middle of the winter, and since your heating system now relies on your battery to work, you may want to consider keeping your batteries as fully charged as practical. Even just recharging them for one hour per day will really help keep the battery from freezing. Now that you have reliable heat, you may also want to consider discontinuing the use of the DC electric blanket and hooking the batteries in parallel to decrease how much each battery gets discharged between recharging cycles.

As long as I stay warm the batteries will as I have them inside the back corner of the trailer on the floor. They are located about the rear corner of the trailer near the back door. The furnace is 1/2 way down the same side five feet away from the batteries.

I do understand the concept that if one battery is weaker than the other you may shorten the life's of both. If you keep the batteries charged regularly, this should not be a problem. at least through this winter. You could also install a battery isolator switch like they use on boats to switch between the two batteries.

I am thinking about getting another battery minder but maybe just switching them as I do the propane tanks. I will be using the gen as I like to run the gen while I am on the laptop (brighter screen) so why not keep the battery charged and still run the furnace off it (one) The gen will then always be on energy saver as no big load will cause the gen to be in full mode. (No more needing the milk house heater) In that mode the gen can run for 24 hours on one gallon. I know I already checked that out as I studied the furnace stats I did the timing on the gen as well. So that is like using the furnace battery as well as the gen for $90.00 a month maybe less to heat my trailer. Take a stick house at gas and electric bills it will be like a bill to heat my trailer at about $90.00 for electric and $45.00 a month for gas.total Gas & Electric cost @ 135.00 per month for the next say three months.

[southpennrailroad]

Pete! Just thinking about you.

[southpennrailroad]

This is weird!

Furnace shut down @10:30 pm. Only three nights on this bottle which was full. Three flashing lights. (code says Ignition Lockout Fault. I changed propane bottles and it started right up. Was something wrong or out of propane? Surely the propane bottle was not empty. I hope not. Will get both re filled tomorrow early as it is New Years Eve. Second one was partially used B4 I switched to the new furnace so I should have enough for now.

[pete42]

Have a happy new year sounds like we both have suffered through a bad 2010.
Me with all my sick buddies and you well you know what you have been through.
I hope the propane last longer than 3 days.
I'll be watching how things are going.

pete

[mskobier]

Russ,
What have the outside temps been during the day? In the calcs I did earlier, I calculated that you were using about a gallon of propane per day if the run times stayed consistent. If the temps are not warming up much during the day, then that accounts for the propane running out about four days after you started. A 20lb propane bottle only holds about 4 gallons of propane.

Did you get your bottles refilled or did you do one of the the exchange tanks. You know the type, you take your empty and they swap you a full (??) tank in return for around $15-$20. There was an issue out here in Wa a while back when it was discovered that one of the exchange outfits were not completely filling the bottles. Some were only getting about 2-3 gallons instead of the 4 gallons you are paying for. So what looked like a good deal was in reality a rip off. I heat my home with propane, so I keep pretty close track on what propane costs. Even at $3.00 a gallon, a 20lb tank should not cost over about $12.00 plus tax.

I hate the new valves. No way to check if the tank is empty other than shake it and feel for the liquid sloshing around or hooking it up to something an seeing if it lights.

If it were me, I would only get my tanks filled at a propane distributor like Ameri gas, Ferrel gas, etc. The small tanks at the gas station usually charge more than going to the distributor. However, if no distributor is close, then you have to get it where you can.

later
You have a PM
Mitch

[southpennrailroad]

Mitch

I get them filled at a weigh station.

And as often as I lift them I know they were filled by the heaviness of the tank as I lift them into the truck. The temp climbed today compared from the last few weeks of 20 high to teens low. I think the tank still has propane but just stopped giving. I will take them both tomorrow to get them topped off. I get them done at UHaul and they weigh them. I watch.

Happy New Year Everyone.

[mikeschn]

I hate the new valves. No way to check if the tank is empty other than shake it and feel for the liquid sloshing around or hooking it up to something an seeing if it lights.

Mitch,

I saw these propane cylinders at Sams Club last week, and it appeared to have a gauge attached to the float device inside the cylinder. I can't find it on the internet right now, so I guess I'll have to go back to Sams Club with my camera to see if what I thought I saw, I really saw!!!



Meanwhile, apparently these are available at Harbor Freight... but according to this thread, they are not recommended...
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76506


[img]
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ ... CF9823.jpg[/img]

And of course, I have one of these for my next build...


Mike...

[mskobier]

Russ,
The only thing that could have caused a partially full tank to quit delivering propane is a clog/check of some sort. I do not think that a clog would have cleared just by changing the tank. the new tanks have the built in check valve, but the QC would have to be removed for that to stop the flow. Some of the regulators have a maximim flow restrictor that will shut if it senses that there is too much propane flow. I do not think any of these possibilities were the problem. You stated earlier that you had one partially used tank. Is it possible that you installed that one by mistake?

Please let us know what you find when you get the tanks filled.

Mike,
I have never seen a see through propane tank before. That is cool! I did a web search on see through propane tanks. They have a DOT fire test video that shows a propane tank burning and the results. Definately much better outcone than a steel tank in a fire. If you do a web search on the term "BLEVE" you will understand what I mean.

The in line gas valves are really nothing more than a pressure gauge. The ambient temp can greatly affect their accuracy. The pressure in a propane tank varies significantly upon the temp of the liquid propane it contains. The presure swing is significant. Fram a minimum of around 25psi at 0 degrees to around 175 psi at 100 degrees. here is a link to a pressure vs temp for propane.

http://www.glacierbay.com/ptchartpropane.asp

The gauges that are built into the tanks also leave a bit to be desired. I have several of those tanks and fill them myself. Those gauges are a rough indication at best. However, they are better than nothing.

Yes, I fill my own portable tanks. When I had the house tank installed, I had a wet tap (thief) installed at the same time. That way I could fill my own tanks. It takes a bit longer than a pumped system, but I haven't had to take a tank to get it filled in over ten years. I did take a pair of older 30lb tanks in to get the valves replaced with the currently legal valves, and be recertified and they filled them at that time. THose are the tanks I plan on using on my CT and the only reason I did that was so I could get these larger tanks filled if I were away from home.

Mitch