Birch Plywood.....

[fcreamer88]

I read alot of people using baltic birch ply for the walls of their teardrops. Im still in planning and gathering mode and it seems all the reviews I read for 3/4" birch are horrible! The veneer has voids, not binded everywhere, and pieces peel off or chip when cut even with the proper saw blades. Anybody ran into these problems? My first td is a grasshopper/td cross basically. Im just using 3/4" ply for the walls, no sandwich and no insulation as I live in south TX....it dont get too cold here. I dont want to shoot myself in the foot and get cruddy ply as it will be the main structural support. Any words from the wise?


Thanks in advance,

Forrest C

[Oldragbaggers]

Baltic birch comes in 5x5 sheets and that is the 1/8" stuff that most people use to skin their roofs and hatches. The 3/4" birch you get at the big box stores is not baltic birch. I will say though, that I bought 3/4" birch for my side walls from Home Depot. I think I paid somewhere in the area of $43 a sheet. I skeletonized it real good for my sandwich construction walls and I found very few voids in it. It seemed like nice solid plywood to me. when it was all said and done I think I only had one or two voids that were on the edges that I had to fill with thickened epoxy.

[Ira]

I used baltic birch for my roof. BENDY baltic. Had it shipped from somewhere, but can't remember where right now.

The really thin stuff can be rolled into a tube. That's what I ordered, but they didn't have it and sent me the thicker stuff for the same price packed flat between two sheets of flakeboard. It still bent as needed.

I thaned the crap out of it, with heavy sanding between coats, but the stuff totally separated in the Florida sun. Mind you, this was still thin birch, but as far as THIS ply was concerned, it wasn't designed for exterior use.

The sides are beaded birch from HD (with the lines running through it), and no problem with THAT stuff.

[Tom Kurth]

Heya, Baltic (now often Russian--it always did come from Russia but nobody wanted to admit it) birch plywood is a premium product that is void-free. Much other plywood is made in China (slangily known as 'Chi-ply') and has a bad reputation particularly regarding delamination. Voids do not necessarily mean substandard plywood--different grades may or may not be void-free. You get what you pay for. I work in a cabinet shop that uses three differently sourced plywood products: the previously mentioned Baltic birch, US made plywood, and a Chinese plywood called 'dragon-ply' that is a certified quality product made for and imported by Paxton Hardwoods. I would imagine other distributors are also importing dragon-ply or other similar products. Generally, hearsay claims the big-box home centers aren't so picky. Try going to a cabinet shop to see where they buy or actually buy from them. Once again, you get what you pay for. Oh, and make sure you get an exterior grade plywood for exterior application or else seal it real, real good. Hope this helps.

Best,
Tom










china

[Ira]

Im just using 3/4" ply for the walls, no sandwich and no insulation as I live in south TX....it dont get too cold here.

Forrest, insulation isn't just for the cold--it's for the HEAT!

I had 1 1/4" of rigid foam insulation in mine (2 layers of 3/4"), and when I entered my tear on a scalding SOUTH FLORIDA day, it was COOL in there.

I'm thinking of doing my next one with solid 3/4 sides too--but it's gonna have some kind of insulation all around, even if really thin. And remember that insulation also protects against MOISTURE getting in.

Insulation is just too inexpensive that if you can figure it into your design, I recommend you do it.

--------------------------------------------
Edit:

Now that I figure out my design in my head, I think I'm going to do sandwich walls. Two sheets of real thin ply with insulation between for each side, glued/laminated as one piece. This also makes for a much easier build than using strips on the interior, packing insulation in there, and having to use other skins for the interior.

For the roof, it's insulation between the spars, and a skin. (Or maybe just fabric glued there.)

[fcreamer88]

So I need true Baltic birch....not just birch plywood? I planned on insulating the roof, but wasn't too concerned about te walls. Since you reminded me about the moisture blocking, I might oughtta think about it. Especially since the whole purpose of building an off road td is so I can camp on the beach.....humidity central! If I go with sad wish style walls, do y'all recommend using thick ply inside and routing out spaces for the insulation then sheeting over that? What about framing out the walls with, say 1x1's. Then using thin ply inside.

[aggie79]

I used Russian birch ply for the skins on my build. For the plywood framing I use MDO plywood. Both of these I purchased from a specialty supplier.

I also used some Arauco plywood I bought from the blue box. This is a good quality plywood from South America. (I believe it is from Brazil.) It is a structural plywood rather than a finish plywood like "Birch" plywood.

[Ira]

The framing out is a pain, that's what I did, but it leaves space to run electrical, and you need the extra interior skins.

That being said, some guys route out thick walls to install both insulation AND run electrical. This is way beyond my skill level, and my wife's patience level. (After she hears me cursing a few hundred times, harmony doesn't reign supreme in our household.)

My new build is going to be my second, and I learned a LOT since my first, based on usage. I THOUGHT I needed full running 110 power throughout, and 110 lamps, and 110 TV, and a running sink, and this and that and this and that. Bulls*it. For lamps, all I need are battery powered. Television, satellite radio, likewise...I just don't need 110 power for this. And I certainly didn't need to do all that extra construction to WIRE for that.

So for simplicity sake, this time, I'm going to do the sandwich walls, which are a cinch to assemble. (Not to mention strong as a rock.) Cut my profiles for two sheets of thin ply and insulation, and laminate. Wall is now ready to to go, and insulation covers every INCH. With framing, you're not only not getting that 100% insulation coverage, but it's a freaking job and a half!!!

I know you're excited...you're building your first tear...you have tons of energy to burn...but after doing conventional framing for insulation and electrical, and needing to install interior side skins AFTER the walls are up, for me it's no thanks.

You have to make some decisions on what you're really going to need, and believe me, it's only half of what you THINK you're going to need. There are INCREDIBLE craftsmen on this site--I'm just a freaking hack--and THOSE guys can do everything without skipping a beat.

That ain't me, and unless it's you, think it through again. As I mentioned, I think insulation is CRUCIAL, and would rather have that than a stupid sink any day, especially when a bucket with water serves the same purpose.

[Oldragbaggers]

So I need true Baltic birch....not just birch plywood? I planned on insulating the roof, but wasn't too concerned about te walls. Since you reminded me about the moisture blocking, I might oughtta think about it. Especially since the whole purpose of building an off road td is so I can camp on the beach.....humidity central! If I go with sad wish style walls, do y'all recommend using thick ply inside and routing out spaces for the insulation then sheeting over that? What about framing out the walls with, say 1x1's. Then using thin ply inside.

I've seen the sandwich walls done both ways and both ways work equally well. I did mine with the 3/4" ply. I think it's heavier than a frame made from 1x2's but it was the right thing for my skill level. I didn't feel like I had the skills to build the dimensional lumber wooden frame when I first started. I could probably do it now. The one advantage I see with the dimensional lumber is that it is true 3/4" thickness so your insulation will fit perfectly. But a few minutes with a belt sander took my rigid foam insulation down to the same thickness as my plywood without too much trouble. If you use the white styrofoam insulation that has the foil sheeting on it, it will compress easily enough into the spaces. I wanted rigid foam for additional strength in the sidewalls.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this question. (As is the case with most things concerning teardrops!!) It's all up to you, what you feel comfortable with, what works with your design, what will get you where you want to go weight wise, what fits into your time schedule and budget (I think skeletonizing the plywood would be faster, not sure how it compares cost wise).

There are so many of these types of decisions to make right at the beginning, and looking at all the beautiful, skilled, creative and some very complex builds on this site can leave you overwhelmed. I remember agonizing and bugging people about each and every detail ad nauseum. I felt that somehow if I wasn't incorporating all these techniques and ideas I was seeing I was somehow not going to be building it right, or it would be looked down upon as being "crude." But even after the analysis and research I put into it I find there are many things I would do differently if I could do it over.

So, +1 what Ira said, for the most part.

I wish for my first build I had taken the fastest, easiest, cheapest route possible to doing everything, without sacrificing structural integrity, utility or a nice appearance. (This is the one place I depart from Ira's wisdom. I would insulate my floor and roof, but my walls would be 3/4" ply, period.) Just get that inital learning experience, then get out camping and live with it for awhile and learn what I really want and need in a trailer. Then if I found out it wasn't my forever love I wouldn't feel so badly about passing it on and building the next one. If this is your first build, I would encourage you to keep it very simple.

As always, the usual disclaimer, "other's opinions will most certainly vary."

[Ira]

Beautifully said!

Same thing with me:

You would come across a post/TD feature and think, "I gotta do it like that!"

But you really don't.

[Ira]

A perfect example for me was two doors:

I didn't need two. One would have worked just fine!

Yeah, two doors LOOK cooler, so put your door on the driver's side, so when people pass you on the highway they can SEE it!

[fcreamer88]

Thank y'all for the advice. Yes, this will be my first build, but I'm already planning my second as well. this first will be my off road, second will be a traditional ken skill design. I'm sure this first one will be a learning experience, but I am a bit f a perfectionist when it comes to my carpentry work. I am 100% self taught when it comes to anything involving wood. I feel confident in my ability to frame the walls, especially since I won't have the curves like a traditional tear drop. My biggest concerns now are materials to use. Guess I need to just spend te day in the lumber yard. Such a horrible way to spend my day. (says with extreme sarcasm).

The gf and I are pinching pennies currently for our cruise in march, so my ideas have been placed on the back burner. I get a limited amount to spend monthly. So as I said before, tear drop time is going to really drag by for me. All I can do for now is draw and modify.

[CarlLaFong]

I know you're excited...you're building your first tear...you have tons of energy to burn...but after doing conventional framing for insulation and electrical, and needing to install interior side skins AFTER the walls are up, for me it's no thanks.

This is one thing that seem to be the norm when building these things. When (if???) I build mine, the roof spars and headliner will be built as a separate assembly, just like a hatch. After the walls are stick framed. insulated, wired and skinned, the assembly will be clamped into place, between the finished walls and screwed and glued in place. Skinning the insides of the walls will be child's play with no ceiling in your way and installing the headliner will also be a simple matter with the roof spar assembly on a couple of saw horses rather than trying to rassel a sheet of ply into the semi enclosed trailer, getting it bent, holding it in place, slathering glue, fighting with a screw gun or a staple gun, all the while, trying not to gouge your pretty walls or driving a staple through your thumb. I've seen a few builds here where the interface between the wall and headliner was sloppy or worse. By building sub assemblies, everything can be made to fit together with a razor edge. It may seem like extra work, but in reality, it will save hours of frustration and the possibility of doing it over because of some catastrophic boo boo.