Laminated SIPs?

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Postby angib » Mon May 01, 2006 12:09 pm

captainsam wrote:I was going to try silicone as an adhesive to seal the bag edges.

The professionsals here use stuff called 'tacky tape' which is sticky on both sides and had a putty-like core. The putty is needed as you have to be able to join different lengths of plastic - for example, where you are going round where a vacuum hose comes out of the bag. The putty allows you to not only absorb little wrinkles without losing vacuum, but also allows you to join 'spurs' where a big tuck is taken out of one side of the bag.

Tacky tape is suspiciously like the butyl tape used to mount RV windows (although it's used in a narrower width, typcially 3/8") and that might be worth trying it as a substitute.

You do not want a particularly strong bond from whatever tape you use - once you have pulled the vacuum, it will hold the bag together. A weaker bond allows you to pull the bag apart without tearing the bag material, so you can re-use it. The ideal tape then pulls easily off the side of the bag it has remained stuck to.

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Postby asianflava » Mon May 01, 2006 3:18 pm

My plan was to use a rope caulk it is fairly cheap.

I've seen people use a plastic mesh and also bubble wrap between the bag and item to insure the air escapes all areas of the bag.
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Postby Artificer » Thu May 04, 2006 8:39 am

Sam, sorry about the delay. Been busy, and we're off again in a few minuts. :)

The bad news is that your system will leak. Plan on it, and expect it. Its like painting a room, and trying not to get any paint on yourself. Just slap the brush on yourself, and stop worrying about it. 4 mil is somewhat thin for the plastic, and will develop leaks even faster. The leaks don't have to be very large to have a major impact on the system. A grain of sand on the concrete under the plastic, and you walk/set something on it, and there's a pinhole. You can still draw a good vacuum, but the idea of turning the pump off is probably not going to work. We don't need anywhere near high vacuum, so its not a problem. You can always try getting a large round tank, and use it as a resevoir. Just remember they are designed as a pressure vessel, not vacuum, so care in use/choosing it is important.

My setup used two pumps. I tried out a nice high vacuum pump, but I found out it only has 1cfm flow. I then hooked up our ejector/pump setup that I made for a project several years ago. It worked fairly well, except for not catching the leaks during the run. The ejector pump system draws around 20cfm at can do 28.?" of vacuum. Its a very big brother to the water aspirator that I posted earlier. I can post pictures when we get back, if you're interested.

I really like Andrew's sealing material. Now to find some. Once a vacuum is developed, the plastic will seal to itself, so going overboard on edge sealing isn't necessary. My main leak was the vacuum tube inlet. Duct tape didn't provide an adequate seal.

You're correct in the carpet breathing layer. I was going for cheap, and readily available. I would like to come up with a list of parts/materials that would let anyone do this with minimal cost/hassle/knowledge. I would use this method rather than the platten method. With a flexible breathing layer, you are applying pressure to the plywood, getting it to conform to the foam/glue combination. As long as it on a flat surface, you end up with a flat product. With the plywood platten, you have to bend that, as well as your structural plywood to get a good glue joint. Which brings up anther point, that I've been thinking about...

...Pressure required to get a good glue joint goes down with the thickness of the plywood. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned full vacuum is needed, but that is probalby with 1/2" plywood. If you go all the way down to 1/8" plywood, I think you would be supprised at how little pressure/vacuum you need. Your 2.5psi shop vac should be great.

Try the ball valve, and let me know if the system can maintain a vacuum. The lower the vacuum (uhmm less inches/lower psi?) the less problems you'll have with leaks. If your good/lucky, your system will maintain the vacuum for a useable amount of time.

A good industrial shop vac should be able to run continously for the entire run, as long as it stays cool. The motors in these things use the air they're drawing to provide cooling, so if you draw a vacuum for too long, they can burn up. You can use your ball valve to allow some bypass air into the vac to provide cooling. Its a trade off between max vacuum, and vac temperature. Even at 1psi, your taling about 144 lbs of pressure on the plywood. More than enough for 1/8", and probably enough for 1/4" plywood.

I hear pacing downstairs, and Anns going to kill me if we don't leave NOW. I'll follow up this weekend some time.
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Postby angib » Thu May 04, 2006 10:21 am

Artificer wrote:Once a vacuum is developed, the plastic will seal to itself, so going overboard on edge sealing isn't necessary. My main leak was the vacuum tube inlet.

Ahhhh! Sadly, not true. I was lucky as I am too old and have ridden too many motorbikes to have good high frequency hearing - so when I worked in a shop using vacuum bags, I didn't have to be one of the leak-finders, as I couldn't quickly pin them down by sound. But I tried long enough to learn that plastic does not seal to itself under vacuum. However we were using proper high temp vac bag plastic which is probably a little harder than the cheapest plastic.

This is one of those "the rain will fall here and flow down here..." things - no-one has explained to air that it shouldn't try to get into a vacuum and, by gosh, it just keeps trying.

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Postby captainsam » Thu May 04, 2006 12:17 pm

A trick I read to isolate leaks in the bag was to surround the panel (inside the bag, of course) with a few layers of newspaper. Then spray water on the bagging material while under vacuum and look for wet spots and you will have found your leak. Then you can plug it with duct tape or some of the Tacky-Tape Andrew spoke of for sealing the edges. I found Tacky-Tape bagging tape made by Schnee-Morhead Inc, in CA. I'm not sure of the manufacturer but I found several sealing tapes that I believe are similar ( about $5 per 25' roll) at http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product ... gging.html

Also, do you think two sided ( 2" wide) carpet tape would be a good bag sealer? I was thinking it might work although it's not THAT much cheaper to buy... just locally available.

I saw a good explaination of bagging at:

http://www.bertram31.com/proj/tips/vaccuum.htm

They mentioned using fiberglass insulation as a breather material, but I find that a nasty material to handle. I think I'd prefer at natural fiber.... maybe even an old loosely knit blanket or comforter.

Look at the bag connector they use. Nice design. I'd like to build one but with a larger diameter (about 1") so my low pressure shop-vac could move more volume of air. Any ideas how to do this?


Sam
Last edited by captainsam on Thu May 04, 2006 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby angib » Thu May 04, 2006 5:37 pm

captainsam wrote:Also, do you think two sided ( 2" wide) carpet tape would be a good bag sealer? I was thinking it might work although it's not THAT much cheaper to buy... just locally available.

I'm sure that 90% of the time it would work fine. The problem comes when you're trying to seal together two bag edges of different lengths. Even if they're only fractionally different, the longer one has to make a fold to get down to the length of the shorter one and the carpet tape won't seal that - that's where the putty-like core of tacky-tape comes into effect, as it squishes into the fold.

captainsam wrote:Look at the bag connector they use. Nice design. I'd like to build one but with a larger diameter (about 1") so my low pressure shop-vac could move more volume of air. Any ideas how to do this?

Why do you need to move large volumes of air? You don't need a perfect seal when you're just evacuating the bag - we simply held a vacuum cleaner hose over a temporary opening to get the bag into contact with the workpiece. After that you're not requiring to shift any great volume of air - unless you've got a gaping hole in the bag, in which case you need to fix that!

And the test for your bagging skills is what my former boss used to do, back when he probably made the first boat in Britain out of pre-preg material. This had to have an appallingly high cure temperature and a local powder coating (I think) factory let him use their oven during the night. He moulded a boat, bagged it and pulled a vacuum. Then he disconnected the vac pump, loaded the boat mould onto a trailer, towed it a mile or two round to the oven, unloaded it and got the vac pump set up in the oven - all without losing at least enough vacuum to keep the pre-preg and vac bag in place. Now that was good bagging!

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Postby angib » Fri May 05, 2006 4:54 am

That discussion on FGRV about spraying gelcoats turned up this supplier of cheap gel spray guns in Minnesota - it's worth a look as they have pictures and prices (but no 'how to's) of many laminating products. A useful source of info. They even call it tacky-tape too!

Express Composites

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Postby Artificer » Sun May 07, 2006 10:43 am

angib wrote:Ahhhh! Sadly, not true. I was lucky as I am too old and have ridden too many motorbikes to have good high frequency hearing - so when I worked in a shop using vacuum bags, I didn't have to be one of the leak-finders, as I couldn't quickly pin them down by sound. But I tried long enough to learn that plastic does not seal to itself under vacuum. However we were using proper high temp vac bag plastic which is probably a little harder than the cheapest plastic.

This is one of those "the rain will fall here and flow down here..." things - no-one has explained to air that it shouldn't try to get into a vacuum and, by gosh, it just keeps trying.

Andrew


I bow down before your wisdom and experience. :D I have never seen a comercial setup, and am coming to this from the "get it done in the driveway for minimal cost" point of reference. Both the ag bag and sheet polyethlylene plastic sheets I've used have been fairly soft, so they did form a decent seal. Not perfect, however. I'm impressed with your former bosses bagging.

Sam, the following is a pic of the two pumps I used. The big one is a home-made ejector we made up for a test of solar vacuum drying of materials. The second is a scrounged pump. (this is the one I was wondering if you wanted... shipping cost and its yours...1cfm, however)

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Postby captainsam » Thu May 11, 2006 4:06 pm

Between flying and my Honey-Do list I've only been thinking about this till yesterday. Still trying to figure a way to create a reliable laminated SIP to build my Teardrop trailer. Actually. I plan to make a modified Weekender first. Keeping all the surfaces flat, which is the easiest way to build an insulated panel, will simplify things.

I believe with the PL Polyurethane glue, I can make a very strong panel with about 2 psi clamping pressure. Especially if I roughen the luan and foam with a light pass of 60 grit sandpaper before applying the glue. I have tested my shop-vac and it can produce a 2.5 psi vacuum.

I headed over to Home Depot to see what I could find to:

1) attach my shop vac to a vacuum bag
2) trap the vacuum in the bag once it is evacuated
3) measure the vacuum to monitor it's presence

This is what I came up with:

Image

As you can see I used a zip-loc bag to test the equipment since I needed to know I didn't have a leak with the bag. Unless I could assume some part of the system was leak free(the bag), I wouldn't have a clue if the other parts were working. I just threw a few pieces of mail and a sheet of paper towel (to act as a bleed layer) to see what would happen. I took some threaded PVC pipe fittings to clamp the bag between to flat PVC 4" test caps. I cut a hole and glued one to the top the lower plate is loose and held by a PVC nut ( a pipe fitting I cut off).

Image

I used a sheet of rubber and plumbers putty to seal the outer surface of the bag. The results were pretty good. I held -5 in. Hg. ( -2.5 psi for a minute or two and the vacuum bled down to -1 psi in about 10 minutes. I want to get some tacky tape to see if I can seal even better. I feel pretty certain the double zip-loc seam of the bag was not a source of loss.

Image

I admit it looks silly, but I added the legs to hold the attachment so that the plates would be parallel with the top surface of a vacuum bag when sitting on top of a panel in the process of being clamped.

I was concerned that I couldn't hold the vacuum and would have to run the shop-vac continously. I don't think the vac would manage that without overheating. The results of this test give me some hope. After reading Andrew's story about the guy transporting a vacuum bag across town and holding the vacuum, I figured it was possible. I have two shop vacs so I could rotate the two for cooling if necessary.

Image


The vacuum guage was about $10 at Harbor Freight (note it is on the bag side of the shutoff valve to monitor how the vacuum is holding) so I got less than 30 bucks in the project so far. The bag and tacky tape may be the big ticket items if polyethylene sheet won't work. Is there any glue that will seal poly to itself?

Now I will try to build a super air tight vacuum bag that will hold a 4 X 8 panel. I will also try to see if I can improve the seal at the bag attachment. The closure of the bag end that needs to reopen may be difficult although I have seen how others have done it. I will try polyethylene sheet (6 mil) first, but may need to use vinyl to get a supertight bag needed with a low pressure source like a shop vac.

Artificer... hang on to that pump. I want to try to do this in a way that requires minimal hardware if possible. I appreciate the offer and may yet need it.

Sam

ps. For those who are irritated by my obsession with this technology I apologize in advance
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Postby Yahnozha » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:12 pm

This thread is really interesting to say the least, and sorry for bringing it back from the dead...

but getting back to your Dunnage Bag idea. I have a buddy that used to make custom snowboards. Aside from his CNC router, he built all his presses he used for fabrication. It was the same concept of the DB, but he did it in true home brew style, granted his presses were buit for laminating fiberglass/carbon fiber to an ash wood core with a thick plastic base with metal trim, so they were huge steel contraptions complete with heating elements to rapidly cure the epoxy used.

These boards were virtually unbreakable, and he could create curves in the deck by varying the surface underneath the laminate with the air bag pressing down on the laminate. By the way, his *airbags* were used fire hose from the local fire department. Filled with a 175 max psi two stage compressor.

This being said, you could accomplish the same thing with the DB utilizing steel plate and enough reinforcement to keep the surfaces flat. Granted that would be one heavy contraption. Heck, a thick enough steel plate could probably be good enough to bond the foam laminate by itself.

Just my two cents here, but keep up the good work.
P@ = Pat, yep that simple
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Postby GPW » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:25 am

Currently exploring the affiliation with someone who makes LARGE fiberglass sugar cauldrons/columns , etc.... some 6'dia... for gardens ... Talked of a mold for a TD top half /door etc, bottom pan ... Bada Bing !!!! instant TD ... Inner insulated decorative panels just snap in ... How quick is that??? ... can be initally designed to fit on a stock trailer ... The mold is easy ... for me anyway ... just an idea ... :roll:
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insulation

Postby KA » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:31 am

Hi,
More brainstorming here in the wee hours of the morning. I like to recycle and was wondering if anyone had made sandwich type of insulation using packing popcorn peanuts. I was thinking that a person could have a little space between plywood walls and just fill them up with the peanuts. You wouldn't even have to glue them. You could somehow use netting or fabric or even kraft-paper to temporarily hold them in place and then put up the interior wall. You can pick the peanuts up for free at many stores who get a lot of freight.
This is probably a crazy idea. Maybe I should just go to bed now.
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Postby GPW » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:26 am

BUBBLE WRAP ???? :o ZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!
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Re: insulation

Postby WhiteRaider » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:10 am

KA wrote:Hi,
More brainstorming here in the wee hours of the morning. I like to recycle and was wondering if anyone had made sandwich type of insulation using packing popcorn peanuts. I was thinking that a person could have a little space between plywood walls and just fill them up with the peanuts. You wouldn't even have to glue them. You could somehow use netting or fabric or even kraft-paper to temporarily hold them in place and then put up the interior wall.


Kris, this would be better than nothing, but probably not worth the effort. There would be too many air gaps between the peanuts to allow for good insulation. Crushing them up would help a little, but your R value would still be low.

You could possibly look into building something like a homemade version of Rastra which is basically recycled polystyrene bound together with concrete. It's very light, strong, and has great insulating properties. I saw a homemade recipe for mixing it on the web once, but couldn't find it on a quick google a few minutes ago. But portland cement isn't the most green material, so that might not be of interest to you.

For a project this small, I doubt peanuts would be worth the effort. Your best bet, if recycling is your goal, might be to find some construction sites and pick up their pieces of scrap blueboard. You could probably find enough scap to insulate a tear pretty quickly.

Cheers!
Rob
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insulation

Postby KA » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:20 am

Thanks Rob,
I do know some construction people so will have them keep their eyes posted. That's a great idea.
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