Waste water and State parks

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi all

on another thread ( http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=6253 ) it was mentioned that

"But that's a great idea for gray water storage to be in compliance with the State parks"

I dont know what the state park rules are but.....

The most ecologicaly friendly way to dispose of gray water is to drain it directly to active topsoil, there should be nothing within gray water that would cause any contamination anyway.

Is it against park rules to drop gray onto topsoil (or under a turned divet?)

[madjack]

most state parks over here do not allow you to drain grey water onto the ground...most have dump station for you to dump you grey/black water tanks into...some will not even allow you entrance with a RV if it has onboard plumbing and no grey water holding system...
madjack

[gman]

At a KOA in Bakersfield, I was told that I could not even drain my ice chest water onto the ground, how they knew it was from my ice chest and not the sprinklers is beyond me wait a minute, they didn't.

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi all

Thanx for the replies, strange because eco groups accept that gray water straight to the ground is better for enviroment than sending it to sewage works. But who said laws/rules have to make sense.

[TomS]

My understanding about grey water is they don't want you contaminating the ground-water supply with soap.

[48Rob]

I think it is a multi pronged problem...



In general, "grey water" isn't harmful if allowed to soak into the soil, though some soap residues aren't good.

There are problems with food waste contained in the grey water, that don't soak into the ground.

There is always the possibility that the grey waste can wash some black waste out of the pipe (not usually a problem on a teardrop, but from a campground owner/managers perspective, all trailers are the same, right?)

And as always, some folks don't play by the rules, or display any common sense which creates problems for the park, and the next camper to use the site.

Wonderful examples are;

Pour that gallon of spoiled milk down the drain, then just before breaking camp, dump the grey water tank (which also contains rotten meat, etc from the last three days worth of meals) on the ground under or next to the camp site.

The next lucky camper gets to pay good money to live in a sewer...

Then, there is the quantity over quality issue.
Each camper dumps "just a couple gallons" of more or less clear water, but over the course of the season, it amounts to hundreds of gallons, of which, perhaps 2-5% is solid food waste.
Besides being smelly, it will attract insects, rodents, and general scavengers.

In high use campgrounds, if every camper dumped a "few" gallons of water on the ground, the place would be a mud hole.

And last but not least, campgrounds are bound by law to adhere to strict health/safety issues in an effort to provide you with a clean sanitary camp.

If some jerk dumps raw sewage on the ground, then the next camper complains to the State, etc. guess who is in trouble ?

Yep, the campground.

The actions of a few uncaring people cause great inconvenience...
and expense for the rest of us.

All this said, in general, I still don't have any problem with "carefully considered" dumping at (SOME) campgrounds.

Rob

Ever notice how the folks that cry the loudest about their rights being taken away, are the people who stomp hardest on ours?

In case that isn't very clear, an example is the person who doesn't think twice about riding their 4 wheeler/snowmobile, etc across your private property, is the one who will greet you with a shotgun if you dare set foot on his...

[randy chesnutt]

rob, as they say you hit the nail on the head

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi all

I said gray water not black tank contents or even residues, there should be no way of any black getting into gray.

Do Americans do something really different when washing their pots?, how do you get so much solids into the water? In europe we remove the food from the plate into a waste bin before washing the plate.

Pouring a gallon milk into a drain? surely you exagerate or are Americans that wasteful? milk is a natural bio-degradeable product anyway and will soak away without smells same as the gray water.

On continental europe all the campgrounds I have been on dump straight to the ground (Grey water) I have been to several, they are not mud pits, they do not stink and as we wipe our plates first there are no solid lumps of food.

BTW If you are desposing of gray to ground, you do not save it up in the tanks for three days then dump.

Quote Besides being smelly, it will attract insects, rodents, and general scavengers.

Actually the reality is quite different, its none of those things....

Quote If some jerk dumps raw sewage on the ground, then the next camper complains to the State, etc. guess who is in trouble ?

Raw sewage? why do people always start refering to the black waste tank, I am definately only refering to gray water.

Here is a Quote from the experts at greywater.com

Consequently, a key to successful greywater treatment lies in its immediate processing before it turns anaerobic.The simplest, most appropriate treatment technique consists of directly introducing freshly generated greywater into an active, live topsoil environment.

[Sonetpro]

Hi George,
Here in Texas the state park rule is you have to store grey water in a tank. I don't agree with it, but it's their rule to use their real estate.
It's also the rule in most towns that it has to go to the sewer. I live in the country so my homes grey water is piped to a garden, It's the lushest part of my yard. And I surly don't need all that water overloading my septic system.
That said I think this is a great way to store it to be in compliance. It sure would beat lugging around one of these.

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Sonet

Yes of course its there land, I merely question the sense of the rule.

BTW I used the Americanised Gray in my post, but have just realised you spell it "properly"

Sending grey water to sewer is such a waste, I cant see the point of messing up 2 such great resources (Black is a great fertilisor if used correctly) and fouling the drinking water by mixing it with black........


Plumbing is such a recent thing (history wise), what a pity the world is making such a hash of it, the natural system of reintegration is better for everyone.

When you think about the statement do bears sh** in the woods, is not only a great rhetorical question, its also a reminder of the natural eco system.....................

[48Rob]

Hello George,

It was not, is not, my intent to disclaim your theory, or say you are wrong, for you are not.

Properly handled grey water is a benefit, not a liability.
While we are on the subject, properly handled black water/waste is also a benefit.
Because of public conception, and an inability to enforce safe distribution, human waste is not a widely used fertilizer here...but it is perfectly fine to use the waste from other animals??

The difficulty is in the administration, or perhaps more clearly, the inability of the government to protect people from themselves.

Perhaps I mis read your original statement, if so, please accept my apologies.

Grey water should not come into contact with black water, but it does.
A do it yourselfer builds his/her own system.
A camper uses a portable (former) black water tank for grey...

Washing dishes...some people are uncaring, and will do whatever pleases them, it's going down the drain, what do they care?
Worse are those who wash their pots, pans, and dishes at the community faucet...have a look around one of these...the excess food is tossed in a near perfect circle around the faucet, or on the nearest tree/bush.
After a few days/weeks of this, or doing the same at the campsite, it does smell and attract unwanted guests!

At times I do exagerate slightly, but (some) Americans are quite wasteful, ruining a gallon of milk is but a petty example.
A soured, lumpy gallon (or less) of milk poured onto the ground will not soak in and dissapear, it will however smell quite foul for a couple days.

In a caring, concerned society, all these things of which we speak are self regulated, and thus never become an issue.
In my corner of the world, self regulation works only for those who care, the rest of the people cause enough problems that the government must regulate us all.

Which was my original point...it isn't the theory, it is the people.


Rob

[mwatters]

Seems to me there are varying degrees of "right" in most of the above posts. The rules aren't made for folks in tears (or tiny trailers) - they're not even made for *most* users - they're made to keep the worst offenders in check.

There's also a matter of scale to consider. At the state parks around here - campsites are located only about 20 - 30 feet apart (on centers), which is actually fairly dense despite the outdoorsy feel. Those sites are always packed full on weekends (and maybe about 10-25% on weekdays). The cumulative effects of the dumping aren't negligable (bears aren't at that same density, so their "black water" is spread further out. )

As far as using sludge (what's left taking the water out of the black-water in the sewers) as fertilizer: Certainly there's nothing wrong in principle in using it. While I expect the opposition has been largely over hyped, the concern is about all the "other stuff" (stuff that didn't come out of somebody) that gets flushed. Some real nasty business there - probably not in high enough concentration to REALLY worry about - but enough that folks can freak out about it.

mkw

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Rob

Sorry if my posted reply seems a bit OTT its very hard to answer point by point and not seem a little "stiff"

On the milk thing, turning a divet and pouring in should not cause any smell, it will break down naturally.

MKW

Just over one hundred years ago all black went to the ground, sewers are a recent plumbing item, we were all bears figuratively speaking, in many parts of the world they still use black (or night soil as they call it, to fertilise their crops) Their system is far in advance of our sewage, black and grey being used exactly as nature intended

As to cumalative effects, on mainland europe the plots are far smaller and their is no build up of grey water, no mud plot for next user and they are in virtually continuous use. I think its what people imagine rather than the reality, I have seen the reality on euro Campsites and its not muddy or smelly.

[mwatters]

Didn't seem "stiff" to me...

Black as fertilizer: The 'material' is being generated and used locally - they know what's in it. My father grew up on a farm and they did the exact same thing. Heck, EVERYBODY knows (wasn't there a book with this title?!?) that the grass is always greener over the septic tank (actually over the field - but why be picky).

As far as food particles and whatnot building up cumulatively, I have to back up what was mentioned above. Darn near every place I've been - if you go to the central water station (where people are cleaning dishes), there will be an accumulation of food bits. I'm sure it thrills the coons, but I'd rather not have them wandering past me at night. That's an extreme case (as more than one camper is using the same site to 'dump'), granted, but it's very real.

I'm not meaning to imply that the European sites are foul - just that I expect the American ones would be - largely due to the minority of people who would abuse the policy and not the ones acting properly.

That being said - I dump my wash water on the ground. Food bits go in a trash bag, wash water out into the tree-line. Usually soaks in after about 10 minutes (except at the Indiana Dunes where it's in seconds).

Mike

[asianflava]

I saw this thread and remembered these.

http://www.mikenchell.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55738
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=3712