Think about this when you 'fill-er up'...

Things that don't fit anywhere else...

Think about this when you 'fill-er up'...

Postby Arne » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:12 pm

http://www.350.org/

Gas is cheap again, but the damage to the world continues... what kind of world do you want to pass on?

I'm not a tree hugger, but I am a realist, and the things that are going on are just being ignored.... Where's O'bama when we need him?
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Re: Think about this when you 'fill-er up'...

Postby mikeschn » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:25 pm

Arne wrote:http://www.350.org/

Gas is cheap again, but the damage to the world continues... what kind of world do you want to pass on?

I'm not a tree hugger, but I am a realist, and the things that are going on are just being ignored.... Where's O'bama when we need him?


I don't want to turn this into a political thread, but I caught a glimpse of something called "Cap and Trade" that will increase our energy costs. Gasoline could easily go as high as $4/gallon again, this time for good.

Mike...
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Postby drafter » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:00 pm

If you want to blame somone, blame the Goverment and oil companies. I used to work for a group that worked with emmision systems on cars. They were controlling a 350 chevy V-8 with a laptop. It was producing very little emmisions and was getting around 95 miles to the gallon. The guy who designed it, sold the project to another group. The gentleman I worked for died a very wealthy man. The car companies keep telling us that they cannot produce cars to get anything better than somewhere in the 30 miles to the gallon. Now realise he did this with the factory injector system, laptop and software he developed. Sorry for the rant. If I had not been working with it or seen it myself I probably wouldn't believe it either.
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Postby digimark » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:58 pm

Re: Cap & Trade, Energy Tax, etc.

I agree that we don't want to get too deep into the politics; it's a scary neck 'o the woods. But these things are demonstrably true:

1. There's only so much oil; the Lord isn't making any more of it. And the most easy-to-obtain bulk of it is under the control of countries we've got problems with.

2. Oil burning cars, trains and airplanes have been wonderful and have taken us far in a relatively short time, but we're only now approaching some of the downsides that haven't been obvious before -- we're polluting the atmosphere and approaching a tipping point where the effects will be terrible and tough if not impossible to reverse.

3. It's not realistic to expect Americans to be able to give up oil-based transportation without having reasonably effective replacements. Solar, hydrogen, plug-in electric, battery, gas-electric hybrids and biodiesel are all parts of the solution but each has problems that have to be overcome. So we'll be using oil for a long time to come.

4. The only proven way to induce Americans to cut back on oil consumption is to raise the price. And the price will ultimately continue to rise because of global politics, the easy deposits will begin to run dry and it will get more costly to extract what's left from under deep sea or in shale and coal tars. We've already seen this; when the price skyrocketed last year, we all cut back. And there is no question -- as prices go higher, they will be painful, particularly to the people who can least afford it, low-income people.

5. We haven't been paying the true cost of our oil use because we've never factored in the cost of the pollution and the havoc it's wreaking on the atmosphere. A 2 degree increase in global average temperature doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to melt the Arctic ice cap in summer, shrink the Greenland and Antarctica ice masses, melt the Himalayan mountaintops and European glaciers, all of which will raise the global average water level at least 1-2 feet. Again -- doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to inundate Lower Manhattan and destroy the NYC Subway, triple the Category 4 and 5-level hurricanes each year, and put New Orleans and much of the Louisiana Bayou underwater *permanently*. 2 degrees of warming is enough to dry Lake Mead, kill Las Vegas and Phoenix for lack of water, make DC feel like Jacksonville, Boston as hot as DC, and Maine and Nova Scotia great places to grow what used to grow in North Carolina. And the kicker is that the effects appear to be worse than expected -- the latest studies indicate that, without changes, we're looking at a 5 to 7 degree global increase within 90 years. As an average it doesn't act the same in all places -- some places will actually get cooler, while many more will get warmer, and quite warmer. How does 145 degrees in Phoenix in the summer sound? (Basically, deadly to healthy people, not just seniors, frail and children.)

6. Cap & trade and direct energy taxation are proposed ways to make the users of energy pay the true costs of their use. If it costs more, you'll use less, make efforts to develop alternatives more economical, and provide a ready source of money to subsidize the people hurting the most while funding real solutions to the problem. If there is another way that will work as well, then I'm sure we'll do it. Cap & trade allows efficient users to make money off of their efficiency by selling their extra credits to industries who have difficulties becoming more efficient. So the inefficient industries end up costing more (passing the cost on to their customers). A direct energy tax is more honest, and encourages more widespread conservation, but may not be politically possible for now.

7. People can legitimately disagree on some of the details and proposals, but because oil prices fluctuate much faster than we will see any results from legislation, we are destined to suffer through more boom/bust wild price swings, and it will begin to effect how people get along, how countries get along, etc.

All of this is a major pain-in-the-*** and threatening to us simple folk who just want to go camping and pimp our trailers in the process. But reality intrudes no matter how we try to avoid it. We just need our politicians to create a solution and get on with it.
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Postby Woodbutcher » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:20 pm

We have plenty of oil right in the good old USA. Drill for it and quit sending our dollars to people that hate us. In the mean time, continue to explore alternate fuels to wean us off so much oil. Cap and trade will be a disaster. Get ready for the biggest slump this country has ever seen if it goes through. Watch China and India and Russia wizz by us as we "do the right thing" and all the other counties don't. Might be time to start buying seeds,They could soon become our currency.LOL The dollar sure won't be worth anything.
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Postby WesGrimes » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:33 pm

I am following Al Gore's lead. I yell at everyone in the neighborhood about how they are destroying the world from my Hummer. :lol:

No hate mail please. I am just playin! I know, I know, its all fun and games till you drown from the sea level rising...
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Postby Gage » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:52 pm

Yep, O'bama promised change. And "where is O'bama when we need him?". Who knows. He's probably making arrangements for a big party this weekend. He sure isn't tending shop.
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Postby vrodjason » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:32 pm

Gage wrote:Yep, O'bama promised change. And "where is O'bama when we need him?". Who knows. He's probably making arrangements for a big party this weekend. He sure isn't tending shop.

Probably on another vacation at our expense!

Its hard for me to think about the pollution in the US when other countries are far worse than us. Just look at China. They had to shut down some of their factories so the smog would clear up just a little for the olympics.

My personal opinion is we need to stop spending the $$$$$ on the space program and start using it for research into alt. fuels such as gasification of coal (which the US still has plenty of).
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Postby digimark » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:35 pm

Woodbutcher wrote:We have plenty of oil right in the good old USA. Drill for it and quit sending our dollars to people that hate us.


We use 25% of the world's daily oil usage, and we have 2% of the known reserves. It takes up to 10 years for new oil deposits to come online. We currently import at least 33% of our daily oil needs. A lot of the untapped oil in the US is in wilderness areas that would be spoiled by the effort. Absolutely we should drill for more oil in the US, but it's going to be a trickle against the flood we get from overseas. Our only real option is to conserve by reducing use and increasing our efficiency using oil, and by tapping alternatives like solar and natural gas. The country received some very good news last week -- it appears we have a lot more accessible natural gas than we thought we had, and every therm of gas we tap instead of oil pollutes the air less and doesn't send money to the people who hate us.

Woodbutcher wrote: In the mean time, continue to explore alternate fuels to wean us off so much oil. Cap and trade will be a disaster. Get ready for the biggest slump this country has ever seen if it goes through.


Agreed on the alternate fuels, although corn-based biodiesel has been a disaster because it diverted so much cropland that would normally make edible corn that it drove the global price of corn up. Also, making corn-based biodiesel uses more energy than it develops. That's why sawgrass-based and algae-based biodiesel looks so promising -- it doesn't divert an edible crop, it can be grown in less fertile soils.

Woodbutcher wrote:Watch China and India and Russia wizz by us as we "do the right thing" and all the other counties don't.


That's one of the real problems -- the Chinese, Indians and Russians are still developing their countries and they have a whole bunch of people who want to enjoy the things we take for granted, like personal cars, air conditioning, transporting fresh foods and growing industries. All three countries are building power plants, factories and adding personal cars to their roads at an astounding rate, and if they don't agree to the same cap & trade or energy tax plans we do, our efforts to conserve and protect the atmosphere may be pointless.

Woodbutcher wrote: Might be time to start buying seeds, they could soon become our currency. LOL The dollar sure won't be worth anything.


Amen. Although one good thing about the dollar free-falling, it will make our exports a bargain and we'll have the opposite trade imbalance -- we'll be exporting goods to China/india/Russia and banking the proceeds. It will also make our federal budget deficit and national debt much easier to pay off, and sooner. But the average worker and their families are going to take it in the neck, no question.

By the way, I'm being all long winded because I've been studying this subject and I just wanted to see if I could put together a reasonable response. So please poke holes in it so I can do a better job. -Gary

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Postby chezrad » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:52 pm

I just want to know why it is Americas responsibility to sacrifice our standard of living as well as our security when no other country on this planet is willing to do likewise! We are continually being beat up about what we are doing to the planet. After living in other countries I can only say that the American public doesn't have a clue about what real environmental damage is. Yet somehow it's our responsibility to clean everything up. Sorry this kool-aide is not something I'm going to start drinking.

Besides global warming will reduce our need for heating oil right?
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Postby Scooter » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:51 pm

chezrad wrote:I just want to know why it is Americas responsibility to sacrifice our standard of living as well as our security when no other country on this planet is willing to do likewise!

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Postby doug hodder » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:56 pm

Hope and Change.....I just HOPE when it's all over, I can at least jingle some CHANGE....
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Postby traveler » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:56 pm

Boy, I think I will stay out of ths one :thinking:
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Postby martha24 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:55 am

doug hodder wrote:Hope and Change.....I just HOPE when it's all over, I can at least jingle some CHANGE....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think there are a lot of people feeling that way.
In CA we basically have a bankrupt state as well. :roll:
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Postby Arne » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:18 am

The reality is, since I've been alive, the population of the usa has doubled, from 150 million to over 300 million. The population of the world has more than doubled.

1955 2.8 billion
1960 3 billion
1965 3.3 billion
1970 3.7 billion
1975 4 billion
1980 4.5 billion
1985 4.85 billion
1990 5.3 billion
1995 5.7 billion
1999 6 billion
2006 6.5 billion
2009 6.8 billion
2011 7 billion

Think about China, and its emergence from a 3rd world country. They will be competing with us for the world's oil/gas supplies.

And, with our enhanced life styles, we use far more energy now than ever. Back in the 70's, the prez said: Never again will we be so dependent on foreign oil...

Right. We have bigger houses, a lot more cars (anyone here living in a one car family?)... we have more toys that require more energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States#History

I've said it for years, and I'll say it again: We are the modern Romans. And we know what happened to the Roman empire. Think about what happened to the former great powers: Britain (the sun never sinks on the British empire), Holland (once a great global economic power), Spain (ditto), France (ditto). Where are they now?

http://militaryhistorypodcast.blogspot.com/2007/02/ancient-rome-and-modern-america.html

The government? We made it what it is by wanting it to do more and more for us.

What percentage of US work force is employed by the US Government?

24 percent is the work force in the USA..... and you wonder why your taxes are so high?
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