I’m just curious about firearms and camping

[shoeman]

This is an endless debate for sure. Being a member of a gun club obviously puts me in the pro-right to carry camp. Life is unpredictable, and bad things happen to good people...anywhere and at any time.
A carry permit is not a hunting permit. Discretion is the better part of valor. Walk away if you can when confronted by personal danger or just belligerence, but if it comes down to leaving my wife a widow and my son fatherless I will protect myself to the extreme. While I believe in the rule of law, I also know there are those among us who do not do so in the slightest and have no problems behaving however they wish towards others. Until I can be sure those type of people no longer exist I will advocate for people being allowed to defend themselves with guns if need be.
Here is a well written piece on the subject from the following blogsite:
http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/20 ... chive.html
Friday, March 23, 2007
"why the gun is civilization.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act."

[ob1canola]

Wow This is certainly an interesting thread. Y'all are getting to know
me somewhat from my posts. I am generally a liberal minded person.
But guns and gun rights are my redneck side.I support every law abiding
persons right to carry a gun.I personally have sold more guns than i currently own (I think i have anyway). I have owned guns for hunting
and sport shooting all my life. I can understand a persons need to carry
a gun just because he/she can.I don't fall into this category. I own
lots of different guns rifles, pistols, shotguns, airguns etc. I have never felt the need to carry one with me other than to hunt.I have brought them camping for target practice and entertainment/hunting where legal.
I don't camp in grizzly country..If i did I wouldn't carry a handgun.It's useless against them for the most part. ..black bears don't scare me..I scare them.
A gun is a tool ..There are 2 types of legal gun owners.Those like me
and those that feel the need to duct tape a .454 Casul under their kitchen table just in case some dumb sob is stupid enough to break into their home.
If I feel an immediate need to defend myself in a campground I will swing this with great vigor.



OUCH!!

We live in a very fearful nation .Everyone is afraid of being raped attacked etc. there are more gun owners in canada than in the us per capita.
Yet most canadians don't lock their doors.
This says something about our society.
There were some pretty nasty statistics about rape and whatnot
a few posts back.I am not going to live my life in constant fear.
I refuse. I will leave it up to my fellow campers to guess whether i am packing or not. Nuff said..

[Gaelen]

Here is a well written piece on the subject from the following blogsite:
"why the gun is civilization."
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

Maybe in some worlds, but in the real world--actually, no.

The fallacy in this argument is that it assumes that the gun you carry is the end-all of the argument, no matter what the argument. It assumes that no one could ever bring a more destructive element to the party than you did.

I mean, think about it. If everyone who carried a weapon believed this argument, they'd all think their own piece was the biggest force on the block. And if everyone thought that carrying his own weapon made him bulletpoof, how much of a deterrent would seeing *your* gun be to the guy who wants to take you on, secure in the knowlege that his own piece made *him* bulletproof.

The first weapon was probably a rock or a big stick. And the reality of human life, since the first person picked up that first weapon because he thought it would make him stronger, is that there will always be someone else who has a bigger rock, a bigger stick, a bigger or faster-firing gun, a faster trigger finger, a more hair-trigger temper, a bigger pair, a wilder set of raging hormones, a better selection of life-enhancing chemicals governing his actions/reactions--or worst of all, the feeling that he's got more to lose by backing down. No matter what you carry, it's an essential weakness of your plan to lay your strength and power in something that's no more than a prop--especially because there's always gonna be someone, somewhere, who has a better prop closet than yours. Unless, of course, you've got nuclear armament handy.

You don't have nuclear armament handy, do you? Just checking...

See, 'mine is bigger than yours' has been played since the dawn of time. Escalation is hard-wired into that equation.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

See, now there you go forgetting about the 357 magnum brain again.
Once a brain of sufficient caliber is racked and engaged...well, that's a level of force which can easily outgun standard issue ordnance, if the user understands his power and knows how to use it.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

Nah, that assumes that in the absence of guns, people in conflict will immediately escalate conflict to other types of weapons. What about the other choice given to handle all human interactions--or does reason immediately stop being an option, and if so, at what point?

I try not to ever inflict 'overwheming injury on the loser.' I try to use my power only for good. Granted, I try not to take advantage of people who are less well equpped to do a battle of wits. No, that's not right...winning is all about taking advantage of weakness, and someone who doesn't understand the power of the brain in action is truly weaker than someone who does. I win because I take advantage of that weakness. I try to reserve using my powers only for good. I try to never do battles of wits with the unarmed. However, when I inflict 'injury' on someone, I've never needed to use anything more dangerous or deadly than the weapons mother nature gave me. Good thing, 'cause it sure as heck isn't my 'phyical superiority' that wins conflict interventions.

I no longer weigh 100 lbs...okay, I haven't weighed 100 lbs since my junior prom, if then. But I'm that 5 foot tall woman. And the only 'equalizer' that has ever worked for me is my brain, fully engaged.

But I completely understand that this is a case where YMMV.

[Nitetimes]

The first weapon was probably a rock or a big stick. And the reality of human life, since the first person picked up that first weapon because he thought it would make him stronger, is that there will always be someone else who has a bigger rock, a bigger stick, a bigger or faster-firing gun, a faster trigger finger, a more hair-trigger temper, a bigger pair, a wilder set of raging hormones, a better selection of life-enhancing chemicals governing his actions/reactions--or worst of all, the feeling that he's got more to lose by backing down. No matter what you carry, it's an essential weakness of your plan to lay your strength and power in something that's no more than a prop--especially because there's always gonna be someone, somewhere, who has a better prop closet than yours. Unless, of course, you've got nuclear armament handy.

You don't have nuclear armament handy, do you? Just checking...

This is just plain silly. Most people that carry aren't interested in showing you theirs to compare sizes, it's called concealed carry for a reason.

See, now there you go forgetting about the 357 magnum brain again.
Once a brain of sufficient caliber is racked and engaged...well, that's a level of force which can easily outgun standard issue ordnance, if the user understands his power and knows how to use it.

For your sake I sincerely hope you never run into that one person that has no interest in listening to your reasoning. I'm afraid you'll never get to explain to anyone how good you are at it. The one thing that can surely get you hurt is truly believing what you have written here.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

Nah, that assumes that in the absence of guns, people in conflict will immediately escalate conflict to other types of weapons. What about the other choice given to handle all human interactions--or does reason immediately stop being an option, and if so, at what point?

Well let's see...yes....that would be when you see the gang banger coming at you with a ball bat swinging....I can reason with him... can you??
Some people only understand one kind of reasoning and I'm sorry to say yours ain't it.

I no longer weigh 100 lbs...okay, I haven't weighed 100 lbs since my junior prom, if then. But I'm that 5 foot tall woman. And the only 'equalizer' that has ever worked for me is my brain, fully engaged.

Let us hope for your sake it always works for you.

> YMMV < ??????? don't speak chat, sorry.

[madjack]

Gaelen, I am truly glad that you have been lucky enough to live inna rose colored world and hope that you and all of us may always do so...BUT your reasoning is exactly that...rose colored...this is not a knock or a put down. It is just that I have seen/been on the dark side of life and can tell you it exists EVERYWHERE and I hope you never have to load up your 357mag brain against the dope crazed, gangbanging, sociopath, hell bent on rape, pillage and mayhem...I think you would find it sorely lacking in the needed put down power...........
madjack

[ARKPAT]

madjack Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.......It is just that I have seen/been on the dark side of life and can tell you it exists EVERYWHERE and I hope you never have to load up your 357mag brain against the dope crazed, gangbanging, sociopath, hell bent on rape, pillage and mayhem...I think you would find it sorely lacking in the needed put down power...........
madjack

Mad Jack

I do not normally get into these kinds of discussions but.....

I hope you never have to load up your 357mag brain against the dope crazed, gangbanging, sociopath, hell bent on rape, pillage and mayhem...

I have seen this for real. You are right! I just hope someone doesen't become Dead right.
Act responsibly and be SAFE.
Protect yourself and family. Stuff is stuff!




Pat

[madjack]

Pat, I have seen it for real as well...which is why I posted what I did...I was not knocking Gaelen, just hoping she NEVER comes across or sees some of the things I have...reason is for those that can be reasoned with and there will always be those that can't be reasoned with at all.....
madjack

[ARKPAT]

The same here Madjack.
Sometimes the reasoning is not even a part of the equation.



Pat

[MSG Hall]

When I was young I was forced to witness a young teenage girl being raped. I was held down and I could do nothing as they six of them took turns on her. I woke up in the hospital with a fractured skull and six broken ribs. The girl died.

And what did I do to provoke this?…. I just happened to be walking by. I didn’t know the girl or the six men. If I had had a gun would anything have changed? I don’t know, maybe they had guns too and I would have died, but maybe I could have saved the girl… a fair trade. They made me watch. This incident had (has) a huge influence on my life, and it’s one of the reasons I became a Soldier; to protect those who can’t protect themselves. I have an eye that doesn’t open quite as far as the other because of that beating 25 years ago and I am reminded of it every time I look in the mirror.

There is evil in this world whether you believe in it or not and I will not be helpless against it. I cannot always carry a gun, so I have trained hard in mind and body to be prepared even without it. I have trained my wife and both my girls on how to shoot and how to defend against an attacker. Attacks are rare and I am just paranoid… maybe, bu my oldest daughter now goes to college in the same town this happened… I am scared for her everyday and she refuses to ever carry a gun.

[Gaelen]

Guys...I know the world isn't rose-colored, that the dark side of life is everywhere. I didn't live this long by ignoring danger in dangerous situations.

I don't own or see the world through rose-colored glasses; that is, IMO, suicide. I am not a stranger to violence, which was and still is a minute by minute part of the places I lived for twenty years, and the kind of work I did. I did learn, pretty early in the process, that my attitude plays a huge factor in defining how danger will play out, and that assuming that there was a threat to me rather than actually evaluating the situation always makes the threat worse if it exists, and sometimes creates a threat where none existed.

I know (from first-hand experience) that sometimes, talking someone down isn't an option...I never said it was always going to work in every situation. However, getting physical or violent isn't always an option, either. I was a medic, and medics aren't allowed to carry. But you serve people who are in pain and often in trouble, and you're going to get into some tough situations. To be fair, I've seen as many tough spots in the suburbs as I saw day to day living in tough city neighborhoods and as I saw when visiting dog training clients in their homes. 'Carrying' being a non-option, I had to find something else that worked. I've managed to find a LOT of other things that work, over the years...never underestimate how hard a five foot tall woman can swing a piece of cast iron, an oxygen cannister or a medic box, or her willingness to do that to defend. But things and their creative use are my defensive moves...my brain is my offense.

What I said is that, for me, when I use my head I am never unarmed. Using my head has worked in situations where having a weapon was NOT working for other people...and when the situation was over, they were all damn glad I got there.

YMMV isn't 'chat speak' -- it's internet acronym, and it's been around way longer than text messaging. It's short for 'your mileage may vary' -- quite an appropriate acryonym for this discussion. Mileage does vary in every tough situation--but my brain has gotten me to 51 pretty efficiently. My point is that brain mileage might be a lot more efficient (and held in higher regard) if some people just tuned their brains up and cleaned them as often as they maintain their other weapons.

Nor have I taken or intended anything said in this thread as a put-down. They're words, opinions, and we're all entitled to them. My words have been called a lot worse than 'silly', and so have I, face to face. Heck, that happens every day! No need to apologize.

I don't want to be put into tough or dangerous situations, and I don't want other people to be put in them either...but I've also learned that you can't worry about that kind of stuff every minute. The situations that we meet are something NONE of us can control..regardless of what weapons we choose to carry. All we can do is make sure that we're as good as possible at using the resources we choose to have with us. Like I said, there will always be someone out there who is better, bigger, faster, more desperate or more frantic under pressure. All you can do is arm your self with your best resources and then use them well when necessary. And maybe I worry less about what I'll encounter because I know that my best resource is always with me.

[Miriam C.]

Sarg---You did a good thing teaching your daughters to defend themselves but you cannot, with out brainwashing, train their mind to think like you. They have different life experiences and probably see men as protective and loving...Thanks dad!

Years ago my little sister asked my advice about carrying a gun. She wanted a 357 so she could ride her bike to work and home safely. I asked her these questions.

#1 Can you point that thing and know it will kill a kid?
# how close will someone need to be before you pull the trigger?
# Where will your daughter be while this is going on?
# Are you sure?

Her answers:

Killing is a sin Miriam, you know that!

I would never shoot someone unless I knew I couldn't talk them out of it. Almost touching I guess.

With me, that is why I need the gun. I can't ride crazy to get away if she is on the bike.

Well no maybe not.

She bought a 22 that fired long rifle shots. She decided that blowing someones knees out would be ok if given no choice. She drove her car to work on days her baby was with her.

For some a gun is a liability. It can give the attacker a weapon and a motive if not used first.

Hall, I sure hope you hear me. Rape is alway bad and it hurts the mind and the body, but for some killing another human would be worse. I sincerely hope you will seek some counseling from a really good "Rape Counseling Center", and remember that God has not given us a spirit of fear!

[jeepr]

Talk about timely. A friend sent me this link. LOL

http://www.home-backup-protection.com/b ... ercial.php

CD

I swear people in this country have lost their minds!

[caseydog]

I guess it comes down to a philoopsy of living.

I know there are bad people out there. I know I could be the victim of a violent crime. I am well informed. I know what's out there.

But, I also know that there is a huge difference between a dark alley in a rough part of town, and a tearderop gathering at a state park.

The original post was talking about guns and camping. I suggested that taking a gun to the wilderness, where you might encounter danger, and you wouldn't have any help in the area, would be reasonable.

On the other hand, as someone who attends teardrop gatherings, I pointed out that arming yourself at such a gathering might be unwarranted -- and might make some of your fellow campers a bit nervous.

If people want to carry, and they do it lawfully, then that's their perogative. Just know in advance that other folks are not going to be comfortable with your guns. That's just reality. One consequence of you exercising your "right" to carry is that you are going to freak some people out if they see it, or you tell them about it.

If some crack-sniffing mugger, rapist or other vermon goes after a TD'er at a gathering in my line of sight, he's going to have a face full of Caseydog -- and I'm sure a half dozen or more other TD'ers. Who needs a gun when you have a park full of friends.

From a purely philisophical perspective, I don't want to go thourgh life with a weapon strapped to my hip. I don't understand people who do, other than cops, armoured car drivers, and soldiers.

The way I see it, I am WAY more likely to die or get seriously hurt driving my car. Statistics confirm that. Yet, I drive every day. I drive a safe car, and wear my seatbelts. Even with those precautions, driving is dangerous.

To me, carrying a gun around because of what MIGHT happen, would be like selling my car and staying home, because of what MIGHT happen. That's just me.

The whole gun debate isn't going to be resolved on this forum. But hopefully, those who excercise their "right" to bear arms will use good judgement when it comes to where and when they excercise their "right," so everyone will feel welcome and comfortable at gatherings.

CD

[shoeman]

Yes, this thread was not originally about carrying a gun in day to day life. I think that once again it comes down to a personal decision. In some places possession is illegal, and not all states have reciprocal laws recognizing other permits. So traveling the country and packing a gun, concealed on your person or packed away unloaded in a vehicle, can open you up to trouble with the law. Ultimately it is a risk each person must decide for themselves to take or not take. Obviously discretion is very important, even in your own home town if you choose to carry. Responsible gun owners realize this and act accordingly. You'll never know just how many guns (or other weapons) are around you in everyday life, carried by good people with only good intentions, and those weapons only see the light of day at home or at a range and no have bearing on other good peoples lives. This is how it should be. And if I die of old age and my weapon has never had to leave it's holster for it's ultimate purpose I will be a happy man when I go. To me it's really that simple.

[ob1canola]

There was an incident in our small rural community a few years back.
A fellow went to a residence to purchase some Pot from a dealer.
His intention was to trade a small pistol and some cash for the weed.
There were several people in the home and someone got nervous when they saw the pistol and reached behind the couch for a concealed.
Adrenalin started to rise and the shouting started to rise and the fellow
with the pistol got real nervous and ended up killing 4 people.
He was caught and told police that he had no intentions of killing
anyone when he went in there to buy the weed. But things escalated
and everyone was confused and the shooting started.
His story was backed up by the original person in the residence
that he went to buy the dope from who survived.
This is just one example of how things can go bad quick in an otherwise
innocent(well almost innocent) situation. I am sure this is not an isolated