Is there a good application for hydrogen?

[IndyTom]

Yes, IC engines can be made to operate very well on H2 gas, or HHO as was demonstrated in this video. But if you scoll down through all the messages, you will see that 960 watts were being supplied to the HHO cell to supply the volume of gas necessary to power a 400 watt load. These things are curiosities, but are not the answer to any questions, yet. They may be one day, but are of no practical use today.

As of yet (and I am certain, never) you cannot get more energy out of a system than you put into it.

Tom

[eamarquardt]

Thank you all and in particular Mike for your interaction:

I hope to introduce a whole lot of information to everyone on Hydrogen use in Tear Drop Land.

This is what I am personally be pursueing for My Tear Drop Build to start with. I am busy like everyone else so Baby Steps.

" How To Modify An Off the Shelf Genset to Run on entirely on Hydrogen"

If you want to learn how to do this follow along and have some fun.

http://open-source-energy.org/forum/sho ... hp?tid=383

This demonstrates Proof of concept and will lead you to the plans, technical detail to be able to do this yourself Safety is of the utmost and due keep it in mind. Not to worry because this group will help you with all that. If you are mechanically orientated the change in Timing on the gensete maybe required. This is prodominantly an, Effort Thing", and you will be suprised how little you will need to outlay in dollars.

Has anyone seen this?

http://geetinternational.com/GEET%20-%2 ... 5B1%5D.pdf


Again thanks to all and I look forward to interacting with the members here. . . More to come,

Martin

Me thinks you need to brush up on your "Laws of Thermodynamics". I, for one, am a great believer that 1) You don't get anything for nothing and 2) You, in fact, don't even get what you pay for.

Cheers,

Gus

[IndyTom]

[quote="eamarquardt]

2) You, in fact, don't even get what you pay for.

Cheers,

Gus[/quote]

Seems the sum up thermodynamics better than all the classes I have ever taken

Tom

[GuitarPhotog]

The best summation of the three laws of thermodynamics I've ever seen is attributed to CP Snow

1. you can't win
2. you can't break even
3. you can't quit the game



<Chas>

[Martinup]

Hi all:
Just home from the work income part of my day so I can respond again thanx to Admin for this.

Everyone knows it costs money to sleep . . .

So how does that apply or fit into Thermodynamics. Yes I will look up Laws of thermodynamics. Is Over Unity possible . . . Is this what you are getting at?

Hydrogen has a burn rate FIVE times hotter that Gasoline. Now correct me if I am using wrong "tech phrasing or language" of burn rate flash points, spread etc. etc.

The problem with the gas or diesel Combustion engine is, it is highly inefficient. As beautiful as the best racing technologies and modifications to improve it and or " SUP it up" . It is still a turd. The heat generated via friction is a huge waste of energy . . . and what goes out the tail pipe , ( a lot of unburned byproducts as well as water or Hydrogen)

Heat must be dissipated via air cooled or a radiator and water jacket to keep everything within operating temps.

I have seen other more complete conversions using hydroxy. The term Hydroxy is a mixture of Hydrogen( NOT from a pressurized tank), combined with ambient air and or Exhaust from previous combustion cycles. The trick is as with Gasoline there is always an Air / Fuel ratio. There has been also much experimentation with preheating this mixture. Right?

By chance did the link I provided lead you to one of Russ's many You Tube videos? He has been starting somewhat back of what is known by himself and others for the proper and complete understanding of Low Pressure Hydrogen Systems in order to quantify what the right combination of air / exhaust and / hydrogen.

Why? Because we have to reduce the coefficient burn rate of hydrogen down to the same as that of Gasoline for example.

There is far more to this than I totally, ( perhaps more me or not ), and others completely understand as of yet, but as one other fellow mentioned earlier Hydrogen will play a big part in our futures. It is promising.

In closing not 20 years ago Scientists were swearing up down that Cold Fusion was impossible but now that is being proving out they are Back Peddling or eating their words somewhat in the news.

I will dig up more links on the specific how to convert a small Genset easily and without too much cash out lay.

There is a Big prize for everyone as this stuff finally come onto the mainstream. The only way this will ever come about is in Open Source. At some point mass production will be another economic boom or kick starter worldwide.

Happy thoughts and goals in my life time.

Martin

[GuitarPhotog]

Martin, you don't seem to understand that as promising as hydrogen is, TODAY it requires more energy input than is output. Not only is "over unity" theoretically impossible, "unity" is equally impossible!

That's what we're prattling on about the laws of thermodynamics about, you can't get more out than you put in, in fact you can't even break even. And they demo you pointed us to required more than twice the output energy at the input. That's nowhere close to practical, much less revolutionary or new!

And just as an aside, cold fusion doesn't work either, another case of the laws of thermodynamics at work...

Go read some real science, maybe at the level of high school physics, and forget the blather about energy density, that's all noise. Then once you know what thermodynamics is and why the laws are immutable, then come tell us your hydrogen story. Maybe by then I'll have my bridge ready for sale.

<Chas>

[SteveW]

Could solar power be used to collect/store the hydrogen needed? While still putting more in than what you get out, at least it would be "free" once the setup is paid for.

[Martinup]

Thank you:

I know not everything and am very willing to learn . . . be corrected and guided to better articulate.

What I am reallty looking for is to get rid of the on going , Ever rising Gas Costs, engine wear servicing costs and what pollution, (Exhaust emmisions), or erepairable damage to the entire ecco system which we all have to live in and share.
We are all aware of exponetial human population growth.

I am also aware of the word enviroMENTAL . Why typed it that way is simple.

I do not forget all the coal or other souces need to smelt the steal chemical detrimental effects to produce what ever electronic parts pieces and steel etc.

Realistically it is a lose lose venture when you look at the entire process, ( life expectancy of all the parts). But Mother nature has and is constantly reguvinateing herself and an amazing balance and constant state of change, which is mind boggling and woderous.

We all love to camp, hug trees, maybe swimming, all other out doors rectreation kicking back with a BBQ and libation of preference.

So keep shooting wholes in my postulations. i am learning form it and I hope you are not offended or bothered by it.

Thanks so much for the education and interaction. Together we can perhaps improve it . . . or not , but it is worthwhile nonetheless?

Martin

[GuitarPhotog]

Thank you:

I know not everything and am very willing to learn . . . be corrected and guided to better articulate.

What I am reallty looking for is to get rid of the on going , Ever rising Gas Costs, engine wear servicing costs and what pollution, (Exhaust emmisions), or erepairable damage to the entire ecco system which we all have to live in and share.
We are all aware of exponetial human population growth.

I am also aware of the word enviroMENTAL . Why typed it that way is simple.

I do not forget all the coal or other souces need to smelt the steal chemical detrimental effects to produce what ever electronic parts pieces and steel etc.

Realistically it is a lose lose venture when you look at the entire process, ( life expectancy of all the parts). But Mother nature has and is constantly reguvinateing herself and an amazing balance and constant state of change, which is mind boggling and woderous.

We all love to camp, hug trees, maybe swimming, all other out doors rectreation kicking back with a BBQ and libation of preference.

So keep shooting wholes in my postulations. i am learning form it and I hope you are not offended or bothered by it.

Thanks so much for the education and interaction. Together we can perhaps improve it . . . or not , but it is worthwhile nonetheless?

Martin

Martin, you say you want to get rid of the ever rising cost of gasoline, well H2 ain't gonna do that any time soon. You say you're concerned about the environmental cost, but you seem to conveniently forget that the energy required to make H2, either from oil or from water has its own environmental cost and impact. When it costs 900 W of electricity to produce enough H2 to produce 400 W of electricity, where do you think that extra 500 watts comes from? It comes from that coal or gas-fired power plant down the road, with all it's concomitant costs and environmental impacts.

Mother nature has nothing to do with H2, even though it's the most common element in the universe, it's not available in its free, gaseous state here on earth, it's all tied up in water, rocks, etc. And getting the H2 out of those tied-up sources costs energy, and money, and environmental impacts.

And, as an aside, using H2 for fuel will not cause less engine wear, in fact in a modern mostly steel engine the water vapor produced as exhaust is highly corrosive and will cause more wear than gasoline or biodiesel.

If you want to get on a soapbox to push for more environmentally sound fuels, get on the biodiesel soapbox. It's making a difference today, and doesn't cost more energy than it produces, and it rids the environment of a noxious pollutant (used cooking oil).

But please take the soapbox somewhere else, unless you can figure out how to make your posts relevant to what we come here to discuss, teardrop and tiny travel trailers, and camping.



<Chas>

[eamarquardt]

Thank you:

I know not everything and am very willing to learn . . . be corrected and guided to better articulate. That's why we're here.

What I am reallty looking for is to get rid of the on going , Ever rising Gas Costs, engine wear servicing costs and what pollution, (Exhaust emmisions), or erepairable damage to the entire ecco system which we all have to live in and share. You and a lot of others.We are all aware of exponetial human population growth. Yeah we need to slow down there.

I am also aware of the word enviroMENTAL . Why typed it that way is simple.

I do not forget all the coal or other souces need to smelt the steal chemical detrimental effects to produce what ever electronic parts pieces and steel etc.

Realistically it is a lose lose venture when you look at the entire process, ( life expectancy of all the parts). But Mother nature has and is constantly reguvinateing herself and an amazing balance and constant state of change, which is mind boggling and woderous.

We all love to camp, hug trees hugging trees has never given me a thrill I, maybe swimming, all other out doors rectreation kicking back with a BBQ and libation of preference.

So keep shooting wholes in my postulations. i am learning form it and I hope you are not offended or bothered by it.

Thanks so much for the education and interaction. Together we can perhaps improve it . . . or not , but it is worthwhile nonetheless?

Martin

So, yer gonna power your electrolysis with solar or hydroelectric (in one form or another) as those are your only two "clean" options?
I'm not "entirely convinced" that nuclear power is a viable option for individual use and that it is all that "clean" in the long run. Yer gonna have to have a gas compressor capable of at least a couple thousand pounds per square inch pressure. I have one that goes to 3400 psi that I'd be willing to part with.


Cheers,

Gus

[Forrest747]

In college we did an experiment where we took salt water and applied high frequencies to it and it broke the water down into hydrogen and oxygen which at a point ignited into a flame. enough to roast a marshmellow. the problem was that it took a dump truck of energy to make it happen.

I think of the mythbusters when they tried to blow thier own sail. at some point they could but it was a 3 mph result where as they turned the fan around and got 22 mph with no sail. it maybe a good idea but it may not work as efficent as some other method.

Not to be political but the amount they sunk into some now bankrupt companies they could of put 100,000 natural gas filling stations in garages. Utah here loves natural gas cars. and invest in a way to convert alot of vehicles into NGV.

[angib]

Me thinks you need to brush up on your "Laws of Thermodynamics".

And 1950s comedy musical duo Flanders and Swan made a good explanation which someone has added some animation:



When I was a first year engineering student, our aged thermodynamics lecturer played us this record in class as he reckoned it was a better explanation than he could give....

And as usual, Homer must have the last word:

[Martinup]

Hi all:
Thank you for the Yucs in the cute videos.

Here is a PDF which addresses many of the individual previous posts and various considerations. To save you reading time and Stay on Point which so far is:

The Conversion of an off the shelf Generator, capable of powering a Tear Drop trailer and ALL its Needs , by
modifying the existing way this has typically been done in the industry.

Please read pages 55 to 77

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

I am trying to appropriately and in a positive manor steer the tone of the posting from:

“No this is impractical and impossible to do because . . .”

TO

“This is practical and possible and now what remains is the best way to achieve this in an economic manor.”

In other posts I would like to show you other links using Hydrogen to cook and heat with.

Respectful and kind Regards,
Martin

[ATXKJ]

I am trying to appropriately and in a positive manor steer the tone of the posting from:

“No this is impractical and impossible to do because . . .”

TO

“This is practical and possible and now what remains is the best way to achieve this in an economic manor.”

In other words - you cannot logically argue your position - so you would prefer people not disagree with the minor detail that you are violating the laws of Physics - because you have pretty Powerpoint pictures???

My standpoint - show me the data...real numbers....real measurements... reproducible anywhere in the world.

[GuitarPhotog]

The diagram on pg 55 of that doc is a typical snake-eats-tail perpetual motion machine where the generator generates the electricity to disassociate the hydrogen out of the water to drive the generator.

Doesn't work today, won't work tomorrow, no mater what anyone claims.

you can't win
you can't break even
you can't leave the game

I think it's time for Mike to lock this thread and remove Martinup.


<Chas>