GAS...in your area again!!!

[caseydog]

If you live in Texas, and spend any time thinking about the oil and gas industry, then you know T. Boone Pickens. He's a billionaire corporate raider who got most of his billions in the oil industry.

T. Boone Pickens is not a liberal by any means, and if he supports something you can be sure he stands to gain in some way. However, his position on our energy situation is worth listening to, and thinking about.

http://www.pickensplan.com/media/?bcpid ... 1747278475

Go to the site and snoop around. You might find some good food for thought.

[Jst83]

Snip.... Fuel made from soy oil is alright if not mixed to strongly. Soy diesel is good because it's made from brand new oil.

Jeff

There the Soy industry goes again. First Soy bugers, then Soy turkey, soy everthing and NOW soy biodiesel!

What next Soy-liant Green??????



(Old movie.....)

Ahh it's people

[Elumia]

Tar balls on the beach aren't always from oil rigs. In Santa Barbara, CA they occur naturally. I suspect some of the tar balls in the gulf may be natural too - after all, they drill where there is oil.

http://geology.about.com/library/bl/ima ... udeoil.htm

We need to think in terms of stuff we waste all the time too. The city of SF is creating a pilot plant to turn grease from restaurant grease interceptors into fuel.
http://www.sfwater.org/detail.cfm/MC_ID ... /C_ID/4018

They are doing it in Oakland too:
http://cbs5.com/local/EBMUD.grease.biof ... 26708.html

Grease that goes down the drain is a problem for all sewer systems, I believe another municipality in the bay area is trying to skim what households send down the drain into even more fuel. These biofeuls can be used to run generators at the treatment plant, or again made into biodiesel. Every large American city can do this. Think about all the oil that goes out grocery stores - most ends up down the drain. Treatment plants can also take food waste and run it through their digesters to make Methane to run Generators as well - this takes the food waste out of the landfill.

Mark

[pete.wilson]

Hey

I think a lot of what Boone says makes good sense but I do have one issue and we have already seen people comment about it in a different area/subject. People have said they don't like the sight of off-shore oil platforms from land especially in large numbers, OK. But what is the difference in looking at a large number of windmills (the big ones with 75' ft blades (I'm guessing here), it still comes down to being an eye-sore, it just depends in who'se backyard this stuff gets built. Kind of like billboard signs along highways, we all like we them when we find a hotel or a gas station when we want one, but too many is an eyesore. I personally would not want thousands of windmills all across the US much less in KS, WY, SD, OK, TX and the other relatively windy states, or do you want a nuclear power plant in your back yard....their safe (useually). Something to consider when talking about points of view and energy plans

Pete Wilson

[caseydog]

Hey

I think a lot of what Boone says makes good sense but I do have one issue and we have already seen people comment about it in a different area/subject. People have said they don't like the sight of off-shore oil platforms from land especially in large numbers, OK. But what is the difference in looking at a large number of windmills (the big ones with 75' ft blades (I'm guessing here), it still comes down to being an eye-sore, it just depends in who'se backyard this stuff gets built. Kind of like billboard signs along highways, we all like we them when we find a hotel or a gas station when we want one, but too many is an eyesore. I personally would not want thousands of windmills all across the US much less in KS, WY, SD, OK, TX and the other relatively windy states, or do you want a nuclear power plant in your back yard....their safe (useually). Something to consider when talking about points of view and energy plans

Pete Wilson

People are opposing windmills in scenic areas, Like the coast of Maine, but most wind-farms are popping up in the central US, with Texas leading the nation, so far. The wind-farms I've seen in Texas are all in flat open prairies with very low population density.

There is a lot of area in Texas where wind-farms are not going to damage the scenery -- believe me. That also happens to be where the winds are most conducive to wind energy generation. Same goes for other areas on the central plains.

As for nuclear plants, they are relatively safe, and can be located in the boonies, too. The political hot-potato is the nuclear waste. Nobody wants that in their backyard.

[Elumia]

How about solar panels in the parking lots of every big box store, office and warehouse? they can be used to shade your car, keep the ashphalt from heating so much and the parking lot is already an eyesore. While they are at it, fill the roof of every large box store and warehouse. Put a gutter on them and collect rainwater for irrigation. Why put "farms" of solar panels out in the boonies? Don't we use most of the electricity in urban areas?

How about solar panels down the median strip of the urban freeway? there has to be enough sun there to power the streetlights.

While they may not be the most efficient way of generating electricity, just the mass quantity would generate a lot of clean power. If there was a bigger market the price/watt would come down. The more we use, the more they would figure out how to make them more efficient.

Think about it, you could buy your power from Walmart Energy corp!

Mark

[caseydog]

How about solar panels in the parking lots of every big box store, office and warehouse? they can be used to shade your car, keep the ashphalt from heating so much and the parking lot is already an eyesore. While they are at it, fill the roof of every large box store and warehouse. Put a gutter on them and collect rainwater for irrigation. Why put "farms" of solar panels out in the boonies? Don't we use most of the electricity in urban areas?

How about solar panels down the median strip of the urban freeway? there has to be enough sun there to power the streetlights.

While they may not be the most efficient way of generating electricity, just the mass quantity would generate a lot of clean power. If there was a bigger market the price/watt would come down. The more we use, the more they would figure out how to make them more efficient.

Think about it, you could buy your power from Walmart Energy corp!

Mark

Yeah, use solar farms in the uninhabited deserts for major production, AND localized solar to augment peak usage at big buildings and shopping malls.

I really believe the answer to our energy problem is going to be many small things, not one big thing.

[Miriam C.]

What ya'll gonna do with all this stuff when it expires.

If you burn the trash for energy you can get all the politicians involved in a really meaningful way. Save us a bunch of money too.

$3.14 today

[Elumia]

stuff when it expires? I assume you mean the solar panels?

What happens when a steam turbine "expires"? What about a deisel generator? A Natural gas generator? I don't see how it is any different. I suspect the lifespan of a PV panel is longer than a typical piece of rotating equipment that generates electricity even if trash is burned to make the steam. (we haven't even compared long term cost of ownership when you factor in cost of fuel and maintenance).

With solar systems, you are paying for your energy up front in hardware costs, with our current system, hardware is less expensive, but you have to continually add fuel at fluctuating market costs. One thing is clear, cost of fuel will rise in time.

The biggest downside of solar and wind is that you are dependent on the sun shining and the wind blowing in order to have electricity. the only option is to have excess generation and a means to store it.

There still is no reason not to to make it a bigger percentage of our power basket from the less that 1% where it now stands.

Mark

[asianflava]

Tar balls on the beach aren't always from oil rigs. In Santa Barbara, CA they occur naturally. I suspect some of the tar balls in the gulf may be natural too - after all, they drill where there is oil.

http://geology.about.com/library/bl/ima ... udeoil.htm

We had tar balls on the beach when I was growing up in FL (Atlantic side). As much as I oppose drilling, it is something that will eventually need to be done. I think I read somewhere that Cuba is doing some offshore drilling,

As mentioned, solar is probably the best way to augment the need for energy, big box stores would be a great place to start. The new job I took is with a company that is producing thin film PVs. Glass comes in one end of the assembly line and solar panels come out the other end. I think the guy giving me the tour said that they'll be able to produce 2 panels every 5 seconds when in full production. If that is true, the price will probably drop to where the roi will make them more attractive for everyone; commercial and residential.

[Nitetimes]

If that is true, the price will probably drop to where the roi will make them more attractive for everyone; commercial and residential.

You'll be sure to let us know when that happens, right!! I would like some of them myself. After I get my new roof on I'll have plenty of room for them.

[Larwyn]

Hey

I think a lot of what Boone says makes good sense but I do have one issue and we have already seen people comment about it in a different area/subject. People have said they don't like the sight of off-shore oil platforms from land especially in large numbers, OK. But what is the difference in looking at a large number of windmills (the big ones with 75' ft blades (I'm guessing here), it still comes down to being an eye-sore, it just depends in who's backyard this stuff gets built. Kind of like billboard signs along highways, we all like we them when we find a hotel or a gas station when we want one, but too many is an eyesore. I personally would not want thousands of windmills all across the US much less in KS, WY, SD, OK, TX and the other relatively windy states, or do you want a nuclear power plant in your back yard....their safe (useually). Something to consider when talking about points of view and energy plans

Pete Wilson

People are opposing windmills in scenic areas, Like the coast of Maine, but most wind-farms are popping up in the central US, with Texas leading the nation, so far. The wind-farms I've seen in Texas are all in flat open prairies with very low population density.

There is a lot of area in Texas where wind-farms are not going to damage the scenery -- believe me. That also happens to be where the winds are most conducive to wind energy generation. Same goes for other areas on the central plains.

As for nuclear plants, they are relatively safe, and can be located in the boonies, too. The political hot-potato is the nuclear waste. Nobody wants that in their backyard.

Mr. Dog,

Some of us live in remote areas of Texas because they are remote areas of Texas. It matters not if one or 1,000,000 people are bothered by the sight, sound and carnage of the windmills. It is not worth the effect it has on the environment in which we have chosen , and paid dearly to live. The noise and activity of the windmills harm kill or scare away much of the wildlife, and clutter up the once pristine view. You, living in Dallas, apparently have no idea what effect a windmill farm has on everything which was previously "wide open nothing". But that is understandable as most "city folk" think that if they put the "sewer" next to the family with no neighbors, then, "who really cares?". I say put that sewer and the windmill on the "grassy knoll". Just because you cannot see that windmill from your driveway does not make it any bettter for those, or even the one, who can.

We do not need all that "stuff" here, it's the folks all crowded together in the city that think they should be able to put their support systems in our back yard so they do not have the consequences of their own requirements that are the problem. I say, if you want a fence post, cut down your own tree, if I need one, I will cut it in my own back yard.

If the neighbor lives too far away to see, that is not such a bad thing. It surely is not reason to put up your big city support systems there!!

"Nuke Plant in the Boonies"?? Do you have any idea how many people it takes to build, then rebuild to new requirements before completion, then rebuild to even new requirements (also before completion), and finally bankrupt and abandon a nuke plant? If it were "the Boonies" to start, it may become a ghost town in the end but it would surely destroy "the Boonies" in between. What you call "the Boonies" is what we call home.

It is okay if there is more than a mile between houses. But those two houses do not need a nuke plant to supply them. Okay, put it in town, not here.

One big advantage the city folks have is the traffic jams. Often they have a good excuse for not getting to work before the middle of the day, and it gives them lots of time for pipe-dreams.........

Just another view of things.

[Elumia]

Lawryn,

I'm not completely clear in your rant if you are against development in the "boonies" or just against "alternative energy" development. Maybe you are just offended that things get stuck "out there" where there are not enough voices to change things.

A few rhetorical questions: What's the difference between a windmill or an oil derrick in the "boonies"? One has to drill for oil where it is found, and a windmill has to be placed where there is wind. Neither one is good for the environment. About that view, I've seen plenty of people who live in the "boonies" clutter and spoil the pristine view with their rustic architecture, collections of used equipment and projects that are slowly finding their way back to the earth. Others build gigantic monuments to show us how precious they are. Each is equally an affront to me. Many dump trash, used motor oil and unwanted chemicals in their dirt, and burn up anything that will ignite releasing all sorts of foul gasses since they don't have trash collection. Just because folks live out in the boonies doesn't mean they are any better stewards of their land than the energy company erecting a windmill or oil derrick. If I take a drive to the country should I be more offended by seeing a wind farm or 7 cars dug into the dirt and called "art"? Who should be telling people and companies how to use their land?

I suspect, that the location of resources and cheap land is much more of a driving force to locate energy sites than putting them out where "city folk" can't see them. Nuclear plants need a source of cooling water. Windmills need wind. Refineries need to placed where the raw materials can be transported to them. Oil and gas wells are drilled where the stuff can be found, onshore or offshore. In the bay Area we have a collection of windmills out in the Livermore hills easily viewable for the suburbs. Most of this land was already ranch land (and still is). The "wildlife" had long been run off. I imagine most wind farms in TX are also being put on some rancher's land and not in national parks. Do you have a beef with your neighbors for selling out to the man? If someone found oil on your property would you allow them to develop it?

Airports tend to get build out in farm/ranch land and then the new development follows. This is typically followed by housing whose new residents then complain that the airport is too loud.....

Sewer treatment plants are usually located at the lowest point of the city, nearest the river, lake or ocean to discharge it once treated. Sh!t flows downhill, so consequently the cheapest way to get it from point A to point B is gravity. Again, I've seen that these tend to be developed before housing sprouts up around them. Of course, since there is a treatment plant nearby, that land is cheaper so poorer people move there. By the way, one of the City of San Franciso's newer sewer plants is located about a block from the beach in a nice neighborhood. They built it under the Zoo! Folks who live in the country get to have the "sewer" in their own yard, it's called a septic tank. They can dump whatever they want in their own sewer and discharge into the ground with little regulation. One thing to remember is that your waste leaches down into the groundwater (which can become part of the public water supply). Think about what you put in your "sewer" especially if you have your own well!

What would you consider the "boonies"? Nowadays, so many people want to get "away" from the city that the "boonies" are really just lighter populated urban areas. the only real "boonies" left seem to be government land! In California, the pressure of all this population growth is turning valuable farmland into subdivisions. Where are we going to grow our food? Are we going to get it from Mexico where fields are sometimes irrigated with raw sewage? In my county we have a "rural urban limit" around municipalities. outside the limit, properties are limited in how small they can be split. I believe it is currently 160 acres minimum. Now the only folks who can buy in are uber rich, or have owned land forever. These 160 Acre lots become a fancy winery or some rich guy's weekend home. Because of the limit, it is harder to create urban sprawl - we just move it to other counties. Upside for me is that I own a house in town. At least I can look over a fields of grapes rather than subdivisions and shopping malls.

I understand your concern about your neighborhood. It drives me crazy to see a huge solar facility developed on a green field site when there are so many other opportunities that wouldn't spoil open land.

Robert Kennedy Jr (staunch envronmentalist) was fighting windmills offshore on Cape Cod near his home. No solution is perfect. Just because someone paid dearly to locate themselves in a particular area doesn't give them the only say. Some things need to be done for the good of many at the detriment of a few. It's easier for all of us to be NIMBY once we have ours.....

Mark

[Joseph]

Joseph

[Larwyn]

What I was trying to say is if you need power in Dallas, build your power plant in Dallas. Last I knew high voltage transmission lines ran in excess of a million dollars a mile so it should be much cheaper to put the plant close to the load. If it is pollution you are worried about, well, we sure as hell do not need it out in the "boonies".


I just do not like the idea that it is okay to locate the unwanted facilities in lightly populated areas. It works because there are fewer people and less money to fight it.

The appearance of my own buildings and property are in no way required to please you or anyone else. As for any junk I display in my own back yard. Who cares, there are not that many people around here to see it anyway..........