Camera traffic tickets

[eamarquardt]

Got a $470 ticket for allegedly not stopping for a red light before making a right turn. The ticket has two pictures of me in my truck taken 3.1 seconds apart. One shows me behind the white line and the other shows me having nearly completed the right turn against the red light (legal here in California). Simply put there is NFW that I failed to stop for the red light. The ticket also says that I was traveling at 13 MPH which is pretty darn fast even for a "California stop". NFW! Did I mention there is NFW I ran the red light.

Soooooo, I got to thinking, 3.1 seconds at 13MPH is about 60 feet that I should have traveled during the 3.1 second interval between the two pictures. However, in the pictures it is clear that I only traveled the length of my truck and my trailer which have a combined length of 32 feet. WTF. So, had I run the light at 13MPH I should have been 30 feet further down the street, I had turned onto, than I actually was based upon the photographic "evidence". If I came to a full stop and then started out, ending up at 13MPH, I should have traveled about 30 feet while making my turn onto the new street. The photographs make it pretty clear that I did travel very close to the 30 feet that I would have had I stopped. and then accelerated to 13MPH in the 3.1 seconds. The sensors on these "traps" are petty accurate and tested on a regular basis so beating the ticket arguing that the system wasn't working correctly is not likely.

So, why did I appear to have run the red light at 13MPH?

If you look at the pictures of the incident you will notice that I'm towing a big and heavy (2000# empty) utility/dump trailer. So, what really happened is that I approached the light and stopped as I should have. The trailer behind me also was detected by the sensors in the ground. As I pulled through the light the sensors detected that the trailer did not stop behind the white line and went through the light w/o stopping as no one stops twice so that the trailer doesn't run the red light. So, proof positive based upon the laws of physics that I stopped at the red light per the law.

Of course the city jacks you around seven ways to Sunday to settle this if you want to plead innocent. They want "their" $470 up front and then, only when their damned good and ready, will they'll give it back if you prove you are innocent. Yeah, right!

In addition, I am clearly visible driving the vehicle and I am not easily mistaken for a woman but the DAes at the court sent the citation to Suzy.

1) There is NFW that I'm gonna send em a check for $470 and then fight to get it back.
2) I'm gonna submit my calculations verified by two professional engineers to make it clear that I am right.
3) Let the battle begin!

As we know, our governments (city, county, and federal) are looking to separate as much of our money from us as possible. So, if you get a ticket from a camera and are towing your trailer you might be experiencing the same phenomena as I did.

Knowledge is power.

Gus


-Gus-

[bc toys]

look up and see if they are legal to give you a ticket with a camera some states had to stop giving them out My wife got one in AZ and it wasn't her or her truck then we found out that they where not allowed to give the tickets from cameras

[eamarquardt]

look up and see if they are legal to give you a ticket with a camera some states had to stop giving them out My wife got one in AZ and it wasn't her or her truck then we found out that they where not allowed to give the tickets from cameras

From what I can find paying the fine is "voluntary" and if you don't pay the fine the court won't go after you and the DMV and your insurance company are not notified. So, I'm gonna try and straighten this out but there is NFW that I'm gonna send em (just got a new letter after I posted) the $490 they want as "bail".

Let the sparks fly.

Cheers,

Gus

[jeffmutch]

Good luck to you Gus!
"
I've seen several people get off scott free from various offenses just by throwing in a bit of speculation. Such as "I know I told the officer at the time I saw the sign, but when I went back a week later, It wasn't there. Now I'm thinking it wasn't there when I disobeyed it."

It seems to me that they count on you not having the time or energy to fight these things and assume you'll pay up without a fight. Remember, It's always been their job to prove your guilt. A bit of "reasonable doubt" is on your side!

[Woodbutcher]

Sorry for the trouble Gus. We have those cameras here in Chicago too. But my ticket was only $100.00. We are allowed to view the actual video of the offense. Do you have that ability ? It may clear up the whole thing one way or the other.

[Shadow Catcher]

I have successfully fought a number of tickets including one of the local speed traps, pointing they do not have signage that meets NHTSA standards (judge threw it out). I also now have a GPS that alarms for stop light cameras. So Gus fight the good fight!

[S. Heisley]

Gus, the DMV recognizes the problem with right turns. I understand that the camera takes a picture of every vehicle that runs a red light, even if it was stopped and then turned right. They have a human check all those pictures and that person may have just gotten mixed up in the process. Try checking red light videos for 8 hours a day. Unless there was a sign that said "No Turn On Red", you'll probably have little difficulty getting out of the ticket, provided you are sweet as honey and chuckle along with them...you know the drill: drip honey, not vinegar. $470 i$ worth a little $weet B$.

[len19070]

I have 3 guys that work for me and I own 2 trucks, besides my own that we use.

I've gotten 2 Camera moving violations in vehicles I haven't been in. The only saving grace is that all 3 trucks are in a corporate name.

The corporation is owned by 4 people (one of which is deceased)

That really aggravates them when they don't have a "Person" to go after.

I beat both citations by simply asking "who was driving?"

Happy Trails

Len

[GuitarPhotog]

From what I can find paying the fine is "voluntary" and if you don't pay the fine the court won't go after you and the DMV and your insurance company are not notified.

I'd kinda like to see some real legal citations for that "voluntary" part. I got a red light camera ticket last year in Calif, and could find nothing in law that says any fines are "voluntary." Lots of internet speculation, lots of rumor, lots of "I heard that...." but not one citation of Section and Paragraph of the Calif. Motor Vehicle Code.

The city of Oakland made $4.5 MILLION off one traffic light last year. These things are gold mines for the city/county governments. I don't believe they would let something like "voluntary" stand. Search the SF Chronicle Archives at sfgate.com for their front page article about red light cameras. It appeared in mid-December, or just after the first of the year (2012) I believe. I don't think I saw anything in there about "voluntary" either.

So, good luck with that.

<Chas>

[eamarquardt]

From what I can find paying the fine is "voluntary" and if you don't pay the fine the court won't go after you and the DMV and your insurance company are not notified.

I'd kinda like to see some real legal citations for that "voluntary" part. I got a red light camera ticket last year in Calif, and could find nothing in law that says any fines are "voluntary." Lots of internet speculation, lots of rumor, lots of "I heard that...." but not one citation of Section and Paragraph of the Calif. Motor Vehicle Code.

The city of Oakland made $4.5 MILLION off one traffic light last year. These things are gold mines for the city/county governments. I don't believe they would let something like "voluntary" stand. Search the SF Chronicle Archives at sfgate.com for their front page article about red light cameras. It appeared in mid-December, or just after the first of the year (2012) I believe. I don't think I saw anything in there about "voluntary" either.

So, good luck with that.

<Chas>

Here is an article in the LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/27 ... s-20110727

I'm going to call the folks that build and maintain the systems tomorrow and verify that towing a trailer causes false triggers.

Cheers,

Gus

[GuitarPhotog]

Wish I had that info last December when mine cost me ~$600, including the traffic school.

Thanks,

<Chas>

[jstrubberg]

Go get 'em, Gus!

Most municipalities are doing away with traffic cameras. They cause more court expense than they save in "cop expense".

Columbia, MO had about a dozen up and working and pulled every one of them last year.

If you can get this in front of a judge, you should win easily.

[eamarquardt]

Update:

The ticket was issued by the Sheriff's department and must not be ignored as there will be consequences for doing so.

I have to get the ticket out of my wife's name and into my name. Months to accomplish.

Then I can write a letter to the judge, stating that I am disabled, multiple court appearances would be a strain on me and cause considerable extra stress and pain, explain that my income is limited (as is virtually everyone's) and it would be difficult to write a check for bail (now $490) that will be tied up for the better part of nine months even if I prove that I stopped at the red light and am innocent. I can also include in my statement why I believe I got ticketed in error and the physics and math calculations that support my story based upon the evidence in the photographs (the location of my truck, the fact I was towing a trailer, my recorded speed, and the elapsed time between the two photographs). He/she may dismiss the ticket at that point, or he/she may not.

If the ticket is not dismissed I must appear in court to plead not guilty and a trial date will be assigned. This will take the better part of a day if not a full day as all the people that plead guilty are allowed to go first. Then I'll have to return for a trial which, certainly will be another day down the tubes.

Of course it's very difficult to call the court and get to a real live person. But, while you're are waiting you are, repeatedly, told how easy it is to handle the ticket on line by paying the fine and by doing so you will not waste your valuable time, have to search for and pay for parking, stand in long lines, etc., etc., and more etc..

All I can say is rat bastards. It's not about justice and fairness, it's all about raising revenue, fairly or unfairly. I'm gonna do my best to not pay them a dime or have $490 tied up for 9 months.

More to follow.

A livid,

Gus

[len19070]

Gus just a few questions about this, and I'm not bustin, just curious.

Was the ticket written to the Trailer or the Truck?

Does your state have 2 license plates. One in the front and one in the back.

Happy Trails

Len

[eamarquardt]

Hi Len,

My truck is actually a new Chevrolet 2012 Traverse because on June 15th a fellow made an unsafe right turn against a red light, ran into me, and damaged my 11 year old van with 140K miles (but in great shape and running great as I had replaced all the stuff that typically fails and I had a spare computer, upholstery, and rear electronic module, ha) beyond cost effective repair. So, I'm really careful driving my new car and especially making right turns against red lights.

Here in the People's Republic of California we have two plates on a car/truck/whatever. One front and one rear. There is a single plate on the rear of the trailer. So, when take your picture they get your front license plate and send the ticket to the registered owner. Both my wife and I are the registered owners of the Traverse. The system is so pathetic that they don't look at the picture to even see who is driving (male or female) and just send out the ticket to the owner of the tow vehicle. Then they expect you to set them straight with a certified return receipt letter that costs you a few bucks. Then they take 3 months to send the ticket out to the actual driver and demand that they post $490 bail. Then, if you wanna fight the ticket, they require you to spend two days of your life in court to prove that they are wrong. That process will take 6 months. Then, after you prove that you didn't run the red light using their own "data" so show that to have run the red light you would have had to violate the "laws of physics" (which even they can't amend) they take another two or three months to return your bail. In short, there is NFW I'm gonna give em $490 up front.

Stay tuned.