Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Products"

Things that don't fit anywhere else...

Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Products"

Postby Martinup » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:30 pm

Hi everyone:

I have been researching a better way to make a SUPER LIGHT WEIGHT Trailer Chassis using this stuff.

http://www.strongwell.com/markets/custom-pultrusions/

Check this out apparently they produce all kinds of shapes that are similar to the ones produced in steel but they are made from polyester and other composite materials. Although the costs may be a bit higher than that of steel they are 80% lighter than the equivalent volume of steel steel.

It is pretty cool they make buildings, all different types of structures, towers and Stairways out of this stuff. Why not make a trailer frame out of it?

I have asked for information about sizing that would be needed to match the comparable steel sizes we use in trailer frames. I also asked for suggestions on how to put it together.

Pretty cool,

:thumbsup: :applause: :thinking:

Martin
Martinup
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 115
Images: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby angib » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:17 am

There is absolutely no shortage of lightweight materials to build teardrop bodies from*.

But the real clever part is:
- can the material be bent in the curve of a teardrop roof?
- can the the material joined easily/strongly at corners/junctions?
- how easy is it to get a good surface finish on the material and on the joints?

* Plywood is one of the suitable lightweight materials. It can also be used as a heavyweight material by only using the 3/4" thickness.
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Larry C » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:17 am

angib wrote: Plywood is one of the suitable lightweight materials. It can also be used as a heavyweight material by only using the 3/4" thickness.


Andrew, I love your humor 8)
"If its worth doing it's worth doing Light"

http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35852
Larry C
500 Club
 
Posts: 732
Images: 78
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:37 am
Location: Finger Lakes
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Martinup » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:31 pm

Hi all:

I am not an engineer or a chemist but the research in aviation seems to fund the chemists to study and come up with orientating chemical compositions that when combined and bonded with heat, under pressure and their natural molecular bonds.

But the real clever part is:
- can the material be bent in the curve of a teardrop roof?
- can the material joined easily/strongly at corners/junctions?
- how easy is it to get a good surface finish on the material and on the joints?


I studied the Strongwell link and they use bolts made of composite materials. From what their website sample pictures demonstrate structures that are lapped using flat plates and bolted together . . . pretty much like they do with structural steel frame works.
http://www.strongwell.com/markets/custom-pultrusions/

I emailed some questions about weather they can heat set the tubing into curved shapes. Their ovens seem to be set up in a straight line feeding process. I also asked if the products can be wrapped with fiber glass and resin after they are fabricated. On a welded chassis there is usually the raised or bumpy sections where ever there is a welded joint anyway.

I also asked if they make different kinds of connectors for perpendicular connector pieces that could be used for the main framework supports on trailers. From what little I know about construction you can drill through an I-Beam, ( as an example ), as long as you do it in the right location and not degrade the strength of beam.


As with the foamy core construction . . . It is not about the core materials used it is about how it is all laminated together that gives it structural integrity. On some of the aviation composite skins they use a honey comb core weighing next to nothing and sandwiched between layers of composite materials.

I invited one of their sales reps to view the TTNT site . . . perhaps he will join us and provide some input on their products and how to use them.

I would really like to lower my frame weight down as much as possible . . . 780 LBs including the spare tire and a 3500 LB torsion axle c/w electric brakes , is pretty hefty even though what I am building is pretty big compared to what others good folks are doing.
:thinking:

Martin
Martinup
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 115
Images: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Mary C » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:20 pm

angib, I think he was talking about making the frame , like the harbor freight trailer out of the stuff, I think thats what he was thinking about. At least I was thinking that, I have thought about all sorts of materials Thinking of ways to get the weight down on the trailer first. the only problem I see is getting it past DOT in some states.

Mary C. :)
User avatar
Mary C
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1776
Images: 473
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:29 pm
Location: Waco, Georgia
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Martinup » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:31 pm

Hi Mary:

Your right about bureaucrats at the DOT. I would hope they would accept some of the manufacturing specs on stuff that is rated . . . there must be some stuff available? Of course one might just not say too much on the subject and see if they pick up on the weight.

I read a study somewhere in Belgium where they took Built a 53 foot trailer out of polyester and resin (as it is the most economical in the composites ) , and made it with vacuume bagging or what is called the infusion process. They did field testing and had the whole thing certified. The results where they saved 18% in the overall dry of the trailer and it proved to be just as strong as steel and actually preformed better.

The whole goal was to save on fuel costs which it did. I'll try and dig up the link on it.

BTW have you had a chance to weigh your foamie yet? Looks really good. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Martin
Martinup
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 115
Images: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Bogo » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:15 pm

I've thought of using them in some structural areas, but not for the frame. Unfortunately getting the sizes I needed wasn't possible without a big batch run. My issue with using them in frame locations is stiffness. All the FRP and similar based structural shapes are more flexible than I thought would work for my frame needs. On the other hand, using one on an inside or outside corner to bond two SIP walls together, I figure they would work fine. The problem was I couldn't get a 2"x2"x1/8" angle from any of the suppliers. If I wanted a 2"x2" angle, it had to be at least 3/8" thick. I didn't need any more structural strength than 1/8" provided, just gluing area. Taking 0.063 aluminum sheet and folding 2"x2"x0.0625" angles out of it provided more strength, weighed similar, and cost much less. I guess I could thermal form sheet stock, and make my angles by draping them over a mold. A large 2" radius for the outside corners, and a small 1/8" radius for the inside corners. I'll have to look into that. :thinking: I could use a translucent layer bonded over an opaque one with holes in it and bury LED lights behind it. :twisted: The nice thing is with thermal forming it should be possible to make complex curves like the curve at the top sides of a TD. Oh yeah, that reminds me. Because many are thermal formable at reasonable temperatures, they might not do well in the south west in the summer. I would not put them in a position where they will be carrying a heavy load like a frame does.
User avatar
Bogo
500 Club
 
Posts: 658
Images: 39
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: The land between two rivers.
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby angib » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:50 am

Why bother using these for a frame? If a teardrop body is built properly, it is self-supporting and all that is needed is the connection points for the axle and tongue. For both of these, steel is a good material.

Arguably one way of making a much lighter HF trailer frame to use under a teardrop would be to simply leave out many of its parts - like many of the cross-members - since the teardrop body doesn't need them.
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Bogo » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:39 pm

The Plastic Fantastic Tear Drop (PFTD).

I did a guesstimate calculation on these. If the wheels are under fenders outboard of the side walls. I figured a box could be made using 1/8" thick 4x8 sheets laminated into a SIP platform for the floor. I'd use 2"x2"x3/8" C-channels around the outside edge. Trim the foam so the c-channels slip over the edge of 2" thick foam. Then laminate a 4x8' sheet onto both sides to make the SIP. Before the SIP is made, some thought needs to go into it to figure out where to put blocking for bolting a minimalist frame to it. The side walls could be made with the same construction, but thinner C-channels for the borders. Problem is not being able to thermal form their standard profiles. Somebody else's may be able to be substituted as this spot doesn't need to be that sturdy. For the roof. thermal form a L channel on top of the side walls with the leg up on the outside side. Glue it in place, and glue ones on the front and back of the base SIP. you may with to screw it down. Use flat head screws and countersink them so they are flush. Then bend a sheet of Filon to the inside, and glue it in place. place your vacuum bagging matting, and bag sheeting on the inside, and tape it to the walls. Hook up the tubing, etc. Now back to the outside, glue down a sheet of 1/2" pink/blue foam, and vacuum bag it down. This will be a bit of a free form vacuum bagging with the curve set by the filon, and foam working against each other. Lather rinse repeat gluing and vacuum bagging 1/2" layers until the roof is 2" to 3" thick. Before vacuum bagging on the second layer, glue the blocking needed for the trunk latches and handle hardware in place. Before the filon sheet is glued in place, glue in the blocking for the hatch hinges, and handle hardware. Then vacuum bag on another filon sheet for the outside skin. Filon sheets could be used on the side walls to make them lighter. Finally cap the edge all around with another L, but leg down this time. Glue in place, and if possible no screws.

Now for the hatch... :thinking: Cut out will be done using a straight 3/4" diameter router bit long enough to go through the roof. Layout router guide boards at the top and bottom. Use the inside edge of the top side L for the guides along the sides. Make 4" radius 1/4 round fillets for the corners to make the edge of the hatch rounded. place some supports under the hatch area on the inside. Route out the hatch being as accurate as possible. Do your last cut along the top, and place a spacer in the routed out gap as the bottom before you route out the top. This is to keep the hatch from sagging and distorting the cut. Thermal form 1/8" thick Ls to fit the inside edge and glue in place. You can use creative vacuum bagging to clamp them in place as the glue cures. Do the same for the outside edges with 1/8" thick Ls. Now, on to the hatch piece. Fit and glue on a 1/8" thick L to the inside edge. Fit and glue on a 1/4" thick L to the outside. Now fit and glue on a flat bar 1/4" thick, and wide enough that it has 1"+ inches overlap to the inside, and hangs over 3/4" to 1" to the outside. A seal between this and the outside face L on the main body is your water seal.

:thinking: Blocking for the hinges and latches. It will need to be installed as the foam is laminated up. Automotive trunk/door type post and latch can be used for securing the hatch. Blocking may be needed to the inside at a couple spots. Route out that first layer of foam, but don't cut through the filon. Carve a block of FRP to fit the curve of the filon, and glue in place. This blocking likely needs to be at least 3" wider and longer the area the post holding plate needs to attach to. So, for a post holding plate with a 1"x3" base, the blocking should be 4"W by 6"L. Similar will be needed on the hatch for the actual latches. Similar will be needed for the hinges on both the body and hatch. Use long throw boat hatch hinges to clear the molding. Use a locking t-handle for actuating the trunk latches. You may need to use your own bell crank to get the control rod angles right. Just pop rivet it to the existing one. If junkyard diving for trunk latches, get the ones that are actuated by a lever. The thickness of the hatch will preclude using ones that have the key right at them.

Side doors can be made similar to the rear hatch, but should be done before the roof is built up. Otherwise there is no access into the inside to support the hatch when it is being cut out.

As an alternate material, HDPE, High Density Polyethylene, could be used. It would be more easily thermal formed, and supported with foam it would be reasonably sturdy in the SW summer sun. Larger radius curves at the edges could be made.

OK, I'm done writing this up. I have to do other things. Some details left out like bolting it to the minimalist frame, tail lights, etc. Have fun with it. hopefully I described things well enough.
User avatar
Bogo
500 Club
 
Posts: 658
Images: 39
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: The land between two rivers.
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby mezmo » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:35 pm

Here's a Build thread, from the past, doing what you are thinking of:

The "Lite House" Ultralight Monocoque build - 6/25/11
by TnTTT member Thomcat316

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=44293

It's a monocoque fiberglass/plascore structure with fiberglass angle
reinforcements etc.

Cheers,
Normn/mezmo
If you have a house - you have a hobby.
User avatar
mezmo
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1817
Images: 194
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Columbia, SC
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Bogo » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:25 am

I've gotten side tracked and have been thinking about the pulltrusion products and the Plastic Fantastic TD idea.

Keeping the weight of the metal part of the frame down. Cost is being ignored in favor of making it light and avoiding welding. The main frame rails are 3"x1.5"x0.25" or so rectangular aluminum tube of 7075-T6. Nearly as strong as typical mild steel, but much lighter. They run along under the sides of the Plastic Fantastic I described above, except near the front. At the appropriate spot a mandrel supported bend of 6X to 10X the tube's horizontal width is made to bring the rails together at the front for a 50 degree a-frame. The reason for mandrel bending is to retain as much as possible of the tube's original strength. Mandrel bending will keep the tube sidewalls from collapsing as it is bent. The coupler can be bolted to the front ends of the tubes. A side bolt torsion axle can be attached to the sides of the aluminum tube using tie plates to distribute it's twisting load over a longer stretch of the aluminum tube. Where bolt holes are made, a clearance hole for a socket can be made in the opposite wall of the aluminum tube without significant loss in strength. No bolt holes will be made in the top or bottom of the tube. Dust caps can be fitted and caulked into the socket clearance holes to keep water and debris out. All bolt holes should be made as close to the center line of the side walls of the tubing as feasible.

Cyan is aluminum frame.
Chartreuse is tie plate.
Axle assembly is a Torflex 45 degree down axle.
Coupler TBD.
Bolt positions TBD.
110761
As drawn this is a 140" long by 60" wide frame. Wheels extend out beyond the sides. Obviously lengths and widths can be changed. I just drew this up to show what I was thinking for a frame design.
User avatar
Bogo
500 Club
 
Posts: 658
Images: 39
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:32 pm
Location: The land between two rivers.
Top

Re: Super light Chasis with Fiberglass " Pulltrusion Product

Postby Martinup » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:26 am

Hi all:

Thanks Norm for refreshing me on that build journal. I reread it and it was very helpful to go through it again. He came out with a an amazing weight. The links he posted where great to drill down on and get more information for what I am building.

Bogo I looked at your pictures but couldn't find a build journal. That quite the rig you are building. The SIPs will work nicely for what you are building. Your right about the costs involved with the Pull trusion parts. They are pricey. As I complete my plugs then the easy part will come and that is the molds . I will show more pics and expand on my build as I have more to show. I must be getting up there in the longest time taken to get the first one built.

The parts I produce will need very little frame work because of their compound shapes are structure in and of themselves. . . Still need blocking in many areas of course.

I am after and working towards an amphibian. Most likely a trimaran or but possibly a cat , ( towable and expandable when out on the water). That is partly why I am interested in the pull trusion stuff. Aluminum works well too in water. I have been studying all sorts of patents to gleen ideas on how it can be done and take the frame with you into the water. I am getting much closer and think I've come up with the right way to tackle it. Hard to explain easier to build it and then show you how as I do it.

Thanks for your thoughts and hope to see some pics as you advance your build.


Hope your are enjoying the summer,

Martin
Martinup
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 115
Images: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm
Top


Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests