WFCO 8955 Converter ?'s..Now Progressive dynamics

[Sevo]

I had asked this question in my build thread but I think it is a better fit here. My questions may help others figure this stuff out.Especially those who are not at electrically inclined as myself.

I will be purchasing a WFCO 8955. The bigger 55 amp panel will allow me to run more 12 V and still charge the batteries. Here are my questions.

1: There are 5 breaker slots, what would you run for the breakers. I will run 30 amp for the main, but what do you all recommend for the remaining 4 slots? All 20 amp or a mix of 20 amp and 15 amp? ( I will have a roof mount AC, and a 120V dorm fridge, 6 gal electric water heater, RV furnace, 8 110 V outlets throughout the cabin )

2: Do I want 2 pole or single pole breakers?

3) What shore inlet do I need for this set up? 30 amp 120V? what inlet do you guys like best?

4) GFCI protection. I would like to put one in the very beginning of the line to protect the entire set up. Do I put this before the 30A breaker or buy a 30 amp GFCI breaker? Please let me know how I go about doing this?

5) What type of batteries would be best for this set up?

6) This may be a dumb question but I am kind of confused about this. Do I need separate inlet for a generator or can I plug the generator into the shore inlet? If I need a separate can you please expand on that?

Thank you for time

Chris

[Shadow Catcher]

You will have more than enough power from a smaller converter particularly if you make an effort to conserve i.e. use LED lights. You might wish to reconsider WFCO, do a search on WFCO complaints and you will find far too many. I have seen many recommendations to replace them and the favorite appears to be a Progressive Dynamics converter. I can speak from first hand experience, we had a problem with our PD caused by the manufacturer of our tear wiring it incorrectly. I called them on a Tuesday afternoon and had the replacement the next morning. Country of origin for WFCO is China, Progressive Dynamics US. A http://www.progressivedyn.com/all_in_one_pd4000.html is equivalent to the WFCO power center.

1: There are 5 breaker slots, what would you run for the breakers. I will run 30 amp for the main, but what do you all recommend for the remaining 4 slots? All 20 amp or a mix of 20 amp and 15 amp? ( I will have a roof mount AC, and a 120V dorm fridge, 6 gal electric water heater, RV furnace, 8 110 V outlets throughout the cabin )
SC) In our PD is the 30A main a 20A outlet for the AV and the rest are 15A

2: Do I want 2 pole or single pole breakers?
SC) ours has double breakers for the 15A

3) What shore inlet do I need for this set up? 30 amp 120V? what inlet do you guys like best?
SC) Ours has a Marinco Inlet and cord and yes 30A, there are other choices.

4) GFCI protection. I would like to put one in the very beginning of the line to protect the entire set up. Do I put this before the 30A breaker or buy a 30 amp GFCI breaker? Please let me know how I go about doing this?
SC) If you use a 30A GFCI breaker it will take care of everything or a GFCI plug will protect everything down stream in that circuit.

5) What type of batteries would be best for this set up?
SC) This is an individual choice www.batteryfaq.org is probably the best single source of information. You do want a true Deep Cycle battery but how big depends on expected use and the choice of AGM vs wet cell is a matter of cost and convenience Wet cells have to have water added periodically. One thing to remember is that what you think you need now may not be what you need in the future, it tends to grow.

6) This may be a dumb question but I am kind of confused about this. Do I need separate inlet for a generator or can I plug the generator into the shore inlet? If I need a separate can you please expand on that?
SC) There are no dumb questions, other than those not asked. I have a generator that puts out sufficient power and a receptical that will take 30A plug from the trailer with out an adapter. If you have a generator that does not have enough power to power the converter charging the battery it is a simple matter to flip the circuit breaker to that section and still have plugs powered

[Sevo]

SC,

Great reply, thank you! It really helped me wrap my head around this

I took you advice on the converter and picked up Progressive Dynamics PD4045KV. The thing that sold me the most was made in the USA. I have to support our country. Plus I happened to get one hell of a deal. 144.00 shipped on ebay. That is cheaper than the WFCO than I was going to buy. It is re-manufactured but it comes with a 1 year manufacture warranty. I figured I couldn't go wrong for that price

I also have a 30 Amp 120 V inlet on its way. I think I will just install a 30amp GFCI main breaker in the converter to protect the entire line.

I am confused about one thing, should I install a master Switch in a stand alone box before the progressive converter to turn off all power or is that over kill? I guess I just need to unplug it from from the inlet, that could be my "master switch". What are your thoughts on this. Master switch or no one is not needed?

For the surge protection I was thinking of getting a shore line cord that was surge protected to protect the entire system. what are your thoughts or way to accomplish this?

thanks for the help

Chris

[aggie79]

Chris,

Sorry I didn't chime in hear before. You'll enjoy the PD convertor. (I have the WFCO and enjoy mine.) While they are not intended for continual use as switches, your breaker in the convertor and the one in the pedestal at the park can serve as master switches. I don't think you'll need a separate main disconnect.

I do have a disconnect on the DC side of things for my battery. I put one in to make sure that even if I accidently leave a light on, that I won't draw down the battery. My disconnect also has the option of connecting a second battery if I like.

If you intend to use the 30 amp breaker as a main breaker/disconnect, you'll need to feed the hot lead to the breaker rather than the bus. (The WFCO instructions showed how to do this.) Also, if you run out of breaker spaces, you probably can use the half-width breakers.

As far as GFCI on the main breaker - or any breaker for that matter - keep in mind that some loads - heating elements, A/C compressor motors, etc. - don't like GFCI. I would recommend not putting GFCI on your main. (It may not work doing the "back feed" method anyway.) I would recommend that you use a GFCI receptacle instead.

Take care,
Tom

[Sevo]

HI Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to post a reply.

Thanks for the tip about the GFCi, I think I will do a few of the sockets then. I got the idea of placing the GFCi in front of everything from the "super simple electricity" thread. Would using that type of built in GFCI reduce the risks of false trips or are all GFCi the same?

How about a surge protector? Should I put one coming into the main 30Amp breaker from the shore line? What are you guys doing for this?

What kind of switch would you use for tuning on and off the water heater? I dont want it to always be on when I turn on the AC current. Would you just rig up a wall switch for this? I was looking for a nicer looking switch? Also, What amp breaker should I be hooking the water heater to, its is the bosh 6 gal 120V heater? I was going to use romex 12-2 wire for the heater, is that ok? Infact, all of my AC current will be on 12-2, will that do?

I appreciate all the information given!

kindest regards

Chris

[Sevo]

I am looking for anyone's input. I enjoy hearing what others think. I can learn from everyone. I don't have the electrical knowledge as most of you have. Your ideas and help is greatly appreciated

Thank you for your time

[Sevo]

Well my PG converter came in the big brown truck today

I started to look at it and it seems I have one that only has 3 breaker slots. I thought it had 5 but I must have mis read the description. I would like to make this work as it was cheaper than the others. Maybe this is why???

I have a attached a picture of the breaker slots and would like to now if I have it laid out correctly. I have 4 items that need ac power: Fridge, Air conditioner, microwave, and 8 wall sockets. Please have a look at my diagram and let me know your thoughts. Will this work or do I need more breakers? If I need more how would I go about adding more?





thanks all

Chris

[Martiangod]

Don't put the AC and water heater on the same breaker, won't handle it if both come on at same time
I would also have fridge by itself

Cuttler Hammer BRD breakers, 2 breakers in one
Get a two pole 30/20 for main and AC,
then a pair of 15/ 15 for fridge and wall plugs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cutler-Hammer-Circuit-Breaker-BD1515-2P-15A-Type-BRD-/360364395382

[Sevo]

Don't put the AC and water heater on the same breaker, won't handle it if both come on at same time
I would also have fridge by itself

Cuttler Hammer BRD breakers, 2 breakers in one
Get a two pole 30/20 for main and AC,
then a pair of 15/ 15 for fridge and wall plugs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cutler-Hammer-Circuit-Breaker-BD1515-2P-15A-Type-BRD-/360364395382

MG,

Thank you so much for the reply, I have been watching this thread looking for some answers . I really appreciate it

I will do just that!

I had thought about just buying the newest version of the PD converter, I think I will try to make this one work

thanks again

[aggie79]

Chris,

I'm glad that MG answered your reply. We were camping this weekend with about 30 other teardroppers at Beavers Bend State Park in Oklahoma.

I need to declare that I'm not an electrical engineer, electrician or technician so hopefully several others will chime in.

Breakers are not rated to be switched like wall switches. However, for the few times you use your camper, I'd use the breaker to switch on and off your water heater.

Regarding GFCI, my preference is to provide ground fault protection at the receptacle rather than the breaker. This thinking is probably an old relic of the past perhaps due to the less developed early GFCI breakers.

I used 12-3 stranded wiring - not Romex. The third conductor provides a separate ground as well has a hot and a neutral. By everything I've read, the stranded wiring holds up better - actually maintains connections to devices better - than solid wiring that are subject to thermal cycles and vibrations as campers are.

Lastly, surge protection would be good but pricy. Additionally, I have heard war stories of undervoltage - brown out conditions - at camp site pedestals as well as reversed wiring in the pedestals. Although I have a tester for reversed wiring - they're pretty cheap - but I've never used it, a surge protector or voltage regulator at a campsite. Iguess I'm fortunate to not having any problems.

Take care,
Tom

[Shadow Catcher]

Progressive Dynamics converters have some over/under voltage and reverse voltage protection built in, how much is open to question. I plan on making/adapting a 30A plug with a volt and polarity test. How much of a real problem there is is hard to assess because all you hear are the horror stories, Statistically how often is there a problem.

[GuitarPhotog]

I just test the pedestal outlet with one of those 3-light testers before I plug the trailer in. If there's an issue at the pedestal, I don't connect until the management corrects it. As for surge protection, I don't plug in anything that's sensitive to voltage level except the WFCO converter/charger.

If the test looks odd or flakey, then I'll get out the multi-meter and actually measure voltages, but not often.

<Chas>

[Engineer Guy]

Perfect Breaker advice from MartianGod...

In the few times out with my '89 ~15' TTT, I've not had Voltage problems [knock on Masonite]. However, at my last stay in a Snowstorm, the Electrical Pedestal Front Panel literally fell forward in my Hand as I tried to plug into 30 Amps, exposed unlimited Amps pre-GFI from the Transformer to me while standing in Snow. I let the older Female Park Owner know thereafter, and I'm sure she got on it. The funky lil RV Park was 'For Sale', and I take it she was in over her Head. Perhaps Hubby had passed on...

Breakers trip from internal temp, and on a sliding 'percentage-over-rating' scale. They'll trip quite fast above ~125% of rating, but will tolerate ~105% of rating for longer. And, so on...

Lower Voltage means more current, which is what can produce heat to trip. So, you can be going along fine supplying 13 Amps or closer to 15 Amps to item 'x'. Then, the 15 Amp Breaker trips, but nothing appears to have changed. When Park Voltage drops, say, due to Summertime usage overall, current draw increases and Breakers can trip annoyingly. That's one reason, if you're so inclined, to monitor Park Voltage. However, if you don't 'push' Breaker Specs, this scenario is a non-issue.

Also, a Dorm Fridge or your A/C kicking on draws a current spike, as can a Resistive Load like a Crock Pot or Water Heater cycling on/off. When 2 items come on simultaneously, even in ideal Voltage conditions, while on the same [sub] Breaker, the momentary current spike can trip a Breaker. So, it's best to not come close to maxing out Breaker Specs IF several items are to be run on any single Breaker. Items like Lights are non-issues because they don't current-spike.

[pmowers]

If you are still looking for a surge protector, the biggest problems are going to be finding one which can handle the current. I was at a local Menard's and they had one which was wired into the load center, providing whole house protection. That said, I must agree that most of the surge is probably going to be from your side of the converter. A surge protector is probably not going to protect you if there is a problem at the pedestal. I am taking the advice of the many more-experienced on this board and carrying a test plug for checking the pedestals.

As far as the number of breaker spaces go, you can use the double breakers(2 breakers in the space of one, not double-pole where they are tied together) and have 2 breakers in one slot, One breaker space is for your full size 30A, leaving you the potential for 4 breakers in the other two spaces, giving you five. This is the same way they quoted my WFCO 8945, 3 spaces, 5 breakers.

[Shadow Catcher]

Progressive Industries (not related to Progressive Dynamics) makes a 30 or 50 amp surge protector http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ssp_30.htm for RV's and while most surges/spikes in your house come from with in your house think about the RV park and the Behemoth RV next to you...
At home I have a whole house surge protector and surge protectors for all the major electronics as well as an uninterpretable power supply for the main computer, but then we have some rather nasty thunderstorms.
A good discussion on this on the RV.Net contained this, some of which does not apply to us.

NewRVerDiane

As you can see, there are a wide range of opinions, many based more on fiction than on facts. If you are interested, this opinion comes from one who made a living repairing things powered by electricity for 40 years.

First the guy who told you that your circuit breakers will protect you should put that into writing and sign it, so that you can go back and get him to pay for repairs when it doesn't. A circuit breaker is designed to protect you and your equipment from shorts, grounds and situations where excess current may be drawn. But they are not intended to protect from surges and they do not open nearly quickly enough to prevent damage from a large one, and if that surge is big enough it will weld the breaker shut. They just are not designed for that purpose.

Electrical surges have been around for years, but they are much more harmful today than in the past because we use so much more solid state electronic equipment. The old style appliances were much more tolerant of short term spikes than what we have today. Such surges can come from lightning, from industry, welders, and even from the starting of equipment inside of the RV park.

The lower priced surge protectors only protect you from surges and they have an upper limit, above which they do not provide protection and they also have a response time that is slower for the lower priced ones and thus they provide less protection. If you plan to buy one, I strongly suggest that you get one of the higher priced ones as they provide far more protection for the cost. The better units not only prevent surges, but the are actually power monitors that will protect your RV from over voltage, under voltage, miswired outlet and many other things that are actually much more common than dangerous surges are. The most common harmful problem from your power supply is actually low voltage. If the voltage of the supply drops below 108V for any extended period it will begin to cause damage to motors and some other types of equipment. That problem is very common in older RV parks and campgrounds and it happens very slowly as more and more RVs arrive and connect to the power supply. They also refuse to connect your RV to the power if the outlet is not wired in a safe manner. That too is pretty common.

I do use one, but I have not always done so. I can't tell you that you will have a problem if you do not use one, as not everyone does. But the odds of it happening grow with each increase in the number of RV owners and the increase in power used. It is very difficult to prove that a line monitor ever protected an RV from damage, but I do know of three RVers who have had repairs that cost in excess of $1500 when they experienced a major surge. I also had an incident where there were three RVs on the same row as we in an RV park who were all complaining of major electrical problems caused by the park's power when I was not effected, and I was using my Surge Guard. I don't know that it protected me, but since one RV was next to me, another directly behind and the third two spaces away, I strongly suspect that I was. There could have been others in our area that I do not know about. We left the following morning so I do not know the outcome of that incident. But we also had RVs for more than 25 years before I ever owned any kind of line monitor and we never had any problems with bad power in those years. I did repair minor electrical problems from time to time that could have been partly from power, but, who knows? I did have all of the lights in our pop-up fail at the same time on one occasion, and I suspect that was a surge, but that was a very long time ago and the pop-up had very little electronic equipment.

Quality line monitor equipment is expensive. But the electronic equipment in most RVs today is far more expensive. For me, I use one, just as I pay for insurance on my car even though I don't expect to ever have an accident. It is much the same thing. If you buy a line monitor and never have a power problem, the purchase will have been a waste of money. But if you should experience a major problem, and do not have any kind of power protection, they you will feel you made a mistake in not purchasing one.

Like many things in life it is a bit of a gamble. I choose to live on the side of safety, but the choice is yours to make.