buying Lithium batteries price question

[Prem]

Do you guys like this kind of talk on this forum?

by OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:45 am

I'm gonna pound you guys into submission about Lithium batteries.......

If this won't make you PUKE your guts out, please shoot yourself in the head NOW!!!

[hankaye]

Prem, Howdy;

Nope, that's why he's on my block/ignore list ... all by hisself.

hank

[Prem]

Anyone else?

[warnmar10]

:BE

Anyone else?

Meh. I employ the slowcowboy method: Recognizable screen name, recognizable avatar...very easy to avoid and/or ignore.

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

LOLROTF

MERRY CHRISTMAS

even $1 - 99% off Sale won't change minds

It's $60 -T105 golf cart batteries or bust all the way.
you guys are the best ....
I gotta wake you up sometimes

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

Prem, Howdy;

Nope, that's why he's on my block/ignore list ... all by hisself.

hank

Hank I gotta say your the smartest man I ever meet, your 100% right , you should be
able to get on my thread and if you don't like what I have to say or shout, you got the right
to put me ON YOUR BLOCK / IGNORE LIST,

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

I started this thread to see if anyone has any experience with prices concerning lithium batteries.
from there some folks started posting links about completely other batteries that do not even apply.

when I make a little bit colorful joke meaning I'm going to keep giving you information until you're convinced that the batteries really are the best batteries, they become upset of my colorful language.my other comment was when did the. Like the dealers where marking up the product eightfold I thought well wouldn't you want to shoot yourself when you see that kind of a markup.I guess with that comment the crowd really got upset.now more folks like to jump in and tell me how they don't like what I have to say and I'm on their band and ignore list.it's sort of funny that they read what I have to say on my thread but then they disagree with it I really don't understand it.

again I'm just really trying to have a serious conversation if anybody is interested in lithium batteries or has any experience with the price of lithium batteries not any other issues that other people may have.I hope this goes a little way to clarify my thoughts on the topic that I would like to share some information on.

if you have a side job working for the flooded battery industry please start your own thread and post your information there thank you

please excuse the spelling I'm trying to do this on the very tiny phone screen and it's very hard to correct mistakes.

[wtcreaux]

OTTCT,

These are the cheapest LiFePO4 batteries I can find http://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries?page=3

~ $60 shipping to my house and the special solar charger makes it just over $1k or $10/ah


Any other places to buy from??

Thanks
William

[bdosborn]

I just threw down 400+ bones for a pair of Deka golf cart batteries about a month before this post. They should last me 4 or 5 years. I'll check back when I need new ones as hopefully the lithium batteries have come down in price by then.

Bruce

[hankaye]

wtcreaux, Howdy;

OTTCT,

These are the cheapest LiFePO4 batteries I can find http://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries?page=3

~ $60 shipping to my house and the special solar charger makes it just over $1k or $10/ah


Any other places to buy from??

Thanks
William

With the concerns about Safety in relation to Lithium batteries I'd surmise that the cheapest
may not be the wisest route to go ... Just my opinion...

hank

[MtnDon]

LFP is considered to be the "safe" lithium battery technology. I can't stress enough that there are huge differences in lithium battery technologies. LFP are the safe ones; the fires we have read about have used other lithium chemistry. It is important that a reliable battery (cell) management system is used with the LFP cells no matter the form of the cells. Unfortunately there is no way to tell what has been built into any of these assembled, case mounted batteries. Perhaps cost is reflected in that; I can not say.

It should be noted that the batteries that were linked to by wtcreaux use cylindrical format cells which are the same chemistry but a smaller size cell than the ones OverTheTop.... bought. The larger rectangular case cell that OTT has are called prismatic cells. There are also pouch cells which are the smallest, lightest of the LFP. The maximum desired current draw is one of the deciding factors in choosing the cell type. Another is the total AH capacity that is desired. The prismatics have the highest capacity and by that virtue also likely the highest rate of discharge. The cylindrical cells would be a poor choice if one was to want to use an inverter to power a microwave, coffee maker or A/C. Cylindrical cell batteries do okay for use in motorcycles where the light weight in a competition bike is an advantage outweighed by the higher pricing for example. But they also need special cold weather techniques for cranking the bikes engine.

So before buying the cheapest or the most expensive I would look at what demands are going to be placed on the battery. If nothing but some LED lights and maybe a small fan or two will be usedin a TD, a battery based on cylindricals would be okay. But if there is a desire to power up some high amp loads then a prismatic cell battery is probably the better bet. FYI, pouch cells are what are used in things like cell phones, cylindricals are used in tools and laptops, and prismatics in electric vehicles and other uses where high discharge currents may be involved. In general.


I'm with bdosborn in wanting to see what the prices are in 4 to 5 years.

[wtcreaux]

Considering I've got a 2013 12v AGM available in another trailer........think I'll use it for now....that's what I like about forums, allows me to get information that is not sales material.....THANKS FOLKS

[abqlloyd]

Ok, let's assume I want 300ah of nominal 12V capacity at 50% dod. What lithium cells would get me 150ah of usable power? Links please.

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

LFP is considered to be the "safe" lithium battery technology. I can't stress enough that there are huge differences in lithium battery technologies. LFP are the safe ones; the fires we have read about have used other lithium chemistry. It is important that a reliable battery (cell) management system is used with the LFP cells no matter the form of the cells. Unfortunately there is no way to tell what has been built into any of these assembled, case mounted batteries. Perhaps cost is reflected in that; I can not say.


I'm with bdosborn in wanting to see what the prices are in 4 to 5 years.

Good luck with that plan, prices have been same for last 4 years and are now climbing like they are on TURBO !!
it seams when oil get cheaper Lithium goes into turbo - strange.

MtnDon your about the only one who is very close & very educated on Lithium LiFeP04, all the rest are arm chair internet experts who don't own a single ah!!
its always amazing to me how someone can become an expert about something they don't own ??
PS... these batteries have been around for 20 years - but they are still new technology (( that another one that gets me ))
they use up to 400 cells in Boats and cars every day , but 4 to 8 cells in a trailer are very dangerous (( again very strange ))

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

A mass market product has to be "idiot" proof. Mastervolt has brought such a product to market. On West Marine's web site they list a 360AH 12V Li battery for just over $10,000.00.

MASTERVOLT Lithium Ion Batteries | West Marine


I don't know what West Marine's gross margin is on products but in specialized retail it is typically between 50-75%. Upscale shoe stores make about 50% gross margin so why should a marine store do worse than that?

So let's say WM pays Mastervolt about $5,000.00 for the battery. It probably has 8 180AH cells in series parallel that cost $250.00 each from the battery factory in China. Then they have to put all the electronics and a box around it. That probably costs a couple hundred plus that much in labor. So all in Mastervolt builds it for about $2,500.00 in material and labor and makes $2,500.00 gross profit (50% gross margin). Then WM sells it for $10K and makes $5K gross profit. Out of all that then the marketing costs, transportation costs, warranty costs, accounting, taxes, etc. come out. In the end nobody is getting rich selling a few hundred of these batteries a year.