Is it just me, or... (aka. weld quality question)

[jeremyindenver]

I remember my welding instructor constantly beating into us that our welds needed to have good penetration. He would break our welds apart to show how good (or bad) our weld was. After a semester of this you started to see that a weld that looked proper on the outside usually had good penetration.

A lot of the pictures I see on this site show welding that doesn't look proper, or maybe I'll say "pretty". I'm not trying to be a hater here or bust on anyones skills, just asking an honest question in the interest of safety. Are the trailers I see on this site built by the average joe strong enough?

[madjack]

...after spending 7yrs here and seeing, I don't know how many hundreds(maybe even thousands) of trailers/campers being built, most all of the failed welds I've seen were on factory/commercial built trailer frames...lets see, I have seen a couple of homebuilts that had fails but they had been put to extreme off road use and I have seen a couple of factory axles fail that resulted in crashes in which the TD actually survived...saw another, which flipped in the Joplin tornado and was fine except the for hatch the getting torn off...is that sturdy enough and does that answer your question...which by the way, was a heckuva first question...so, let me ask you one...you a troll or are you interested in building a teardrop...we can sure help you with that?!?!?!?
madjack

[Shadow Catcher]

Jeremy has a point! To a point.
Most of my working career was in nondestructive testing which included weld inspection, including visual, X-ray/Gama-ray, ultrasound, magnet particle and penetrant. I have worked on ever thing from the space shuttle to carnival ride repairs.
LOF lack of fusion is one of the biggest problems with welding, particularly in welding thin gauge material. And that is what Jeremy observed when his weld teacher did a bend test (put it in a vice and whack it with a big hammer). The well done weld is stronger than the surrounding metal.
There are a number of types of weld when you boil it down, those that look beautiful and are strong, those that look beautiful and will fail, (from LOF most often) and those that are what I call gorilla welds, strong but ugly.
I did not want my kids riding the rides at the local fair, because I looked at the repairs done on them. Most looked like some fool had welded them up using a coat hanger as filler metal. By law they must use the same welding procedure as the manufacturer but unfortunately the responsibility of inspection is the states department of agriculture (at least in Ohio) and they are clueless.

[bobhenry]

I took a welding class and our instructor was a oil tank rigger in his earlier days. He said at the end of his 1st week he was handed an arm full of 3 foot sticks of 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" angle iron and told to start sticking a storage tank for stairs. He was to place a member every 10" around and each would be 8 " higher. This became his stair to the top of the tank. He told the class that this was great motivation to make strong good quality welds.

Despite the class I will admit to being a mediocre to poor welder. What I lacked in quality I made up in quantity. What would have been fine with a 2" stitch every 18" became 4" of weld every foot. I think this is the thought pattern of most home builders. I have been to about 18 gatherings attended by between 30 and 130 trailers. These 900 plus trailers were of various pedigrees and as Jack just said the two that had trouble on the road ( both tongue failures) were factory built units. Almost every hobby builder on this forum will tell you overbuilding is our biggest problem. As I have gained experience with each of my builds they have become lighter and lighter. Some day , I will have a failure and understand where the line in the sand is really drawn.

[jeremyindenver]

Well madjack, it is a heckuva first post :-), but it reveals where my priorities are. I'm a pretty accomplished woodworker, so I'm not worried about that part of the teardrop. On the flip side, I'm a pretty average welder, and this trailer would be the first project I would weld where someone could get hurt if it wasn't right. So I've been looking at these trailers and thinking "I know I can weld at least that good, and if they don't fail then I'm good to go".

So as I said, I'm not "hatin" and I'm not a troll, I'm just genuinely interested in the strength of these trailers. There isn't really a nice way to say that a lot of the welds posted on this forum is ugly (though my politically correct friends could probably figure something out) so I had to just ask the question. Of course I am now obligated to post the pictures of my welds when I build mine...

Out of curiosity, were the offroad trailer failures you saw the kind that have just the straight tongue?

[Dale M.]

There is only one thing that will help.... PRACTICE- Practice - practice...

Get some scrap and practice.... The $$ spent for gas-wire-stick-'lecteicty is worth it.....

I used to do what is refereed to earlier as "gorilla welds", and that was with a stick welder (sold a few years ago), but never had any break.... Now I'm looking for one of them "new fangled" wire feed/gas welders....

Nothing wrong with single straight tongue.... Just have to use the right dimension and thickness of material..... Like 3x3 inch .120 wall or greater.. And catch at least 2 (3 is better) cross braces and use gussets...

Dale

[CarlLaFong]

I've been welding for a while. I have 3 certifications. Most beginners tend to run too cold because they haven't learned to control the puddle. That's really the key, whether you're using MIG, TIG, stick, gas or whatever. Once your puddle manipulation skills improve, you need to increase the heat until you get to the recommended setting for the material that you're using. Each filler has it's own characteristics. Some require a lot of movement at the arc, 6010 and 6011 are two. Some are "drag rods" and you just lay them on. 7024 is a good example. MIG and flux core run differently as well. They run at different polarities. There's a lot going on with welding. The small 110/220 MIG machines are the greatest thing to come down the pike in years. MIG and flux core are very easy to learn. Very intuitive. Flux core wire in a good 110V machine will weld 3/8 material with ease and yield a very sound weld if properly done. I consider a welding machine a must have tool. Don't be afraid. Welding is, for the most part, a skill, not an art.

[madjack]

JiD, yep IIRC both had straight tongues...not a good set up in general and certainly not on an off road unit.
AS others have stated, the biggest problem most of have is severely overbuilding and this comes from the same fears/concerns you expressed...one thing to remember, a properly built TD forms a torsion box and is inherently STRONG...often stronger than the trailer frame it sits on...in fact, a few have been built...successfully...with very little to no frame under them at all...the main purpose of the trailer frame is to connect the tongue to the axle and not support the body of the camper....
madjack
p.s. apologies for the troll comment BUT, I just hadda ask!!!!...........mj

[jeremyindenver]

madjack, i figured they would be the single tube tongue. I know the jeep community I used to be in preferred that for the ability to backup really sharp corners on the trail. I suppose the trade off is that you lose strength, and the trail is the one place you need it! And don't worry about the troll comment, I've got thick virtual skin.

CLF, I agree on the 110 wire feed flux core. It was my only option while living in a town home. Now I have a garage with a sub panel and easy access to 220, but I haven't felt the need to upgrade.

So, you all have convinced me that my welding skills are good enough, now its on to axle selection.

[asianflava]

Yes, I've seen some bad welds on here before, but I haven't heard of them coming back talking about a weld failure. I had a failure, but it was not due to the weld. I've heard wire feed MIGs called "metal caulking guns" and inexperience can cause this.

As MJ said the actual box is quite strong and rigid, which can offer some cushion for weak welds. You also have to remember that folks are building these for themselves (for the most part). They are worried about the liability if it comes apart on the road. That's probably why most are overbuilt.

[gww25]

I have a little welding experience and from that experience I've learned that what you see on the 'outside' doesn't necessarily represent what's on the 'inside'. Some pretty horrible looking welds from a visual standpoint can have full pentration and are strong and some really nice Tig welds that look beautiful can sometimes just be 'glue'. Don't ever try to judge the integrity of any weld by it's outward appearance as this can be very misleading.

[jss06]

When I was putting my frame together there was more then one weld that I ground out and re-welded. My welds are not pretty, but I am confident it will hold up to the use I am putting it to.