Random solar heating thoughts...

[lrrowe]

Jerry,
My approach is to try and keep things simple, but as I once or twice said before, I do get enjoyment out of Rube Goldburg projects. Now to satisfy your suggestions and once I do get the ceiling insularion in (after wiring is done) I will try an experiment with your model to see if is an option that I want to go with. But one still has to use some form of heat source. I believe you use a tankless system outside of the trailer.

I have to be convinced that there is no special winterizing when it is not in use, or at night in the boonies when the temps are way down there and the heater is not on. And I'd do not particularly like the plumbing outside. And if the unit is inside, I do not like the idea of a vent pipe in the roof.

[lrrowe]

Jerry,
My approach is to try and keep things simple, but as I once or twice said before, I do get enjoyment out of Rube Goldburg projects. Now to satisfy your suggestions and once I do get the ceiling insularion in (after wiring is done) I will try an experiment with your model to see if is an option that I want to go with. But one still has to use some form of heat source. I believe you use a tankless system outside of the trailer.

I have to be convinced that there is no special winterizing when it is not in use, or at night in the boonies when the temps are way down there and the heater is not on. And I'd do not particularly like the plumbing outside. And if the unit is inside, I do not like the idea of a vent pipe in the roof.

[Prem]

You guys are TOO funny! Especially you Cindy and you Jerry.

Like Jerry, I keep repeating myself here. But I keep saying that the answer to heating your CT is to drive it to Mexico every winter. It's cheaper than staying home if you are unemployed or retired. But everybody's scared sheetless of Mexico except the Canadians, who populate the RV parks and remote beaches there.



P.S. Since you're gonna stay home and suffer, just build a raging campfire, heat 6" diameter river rocks in the fire and put them in a metal bucket that you haul into your trailer.

[abqlloyd]

Back in the early 80's, before global warming, we hunted and camped all over northern New Mexico. Some bitter cold. Solar collectors were big in the 70's but started dying off in the 80's after the energy crisis died and salvaged parts were around.

My friend's dad heated a camper with Rube Goldberg copper pipe contraption. He had some kind of a home brew heat exchanger for radiant floor heat. The heat exchanger sat in the fire. Hot water circulated and the camper stayed toasty. No fan either.

That camper was basically a stationary hunting cabin but I'm betting with the advances we've made someone could come up with something.

[lrrowe]

How does one delete duplicate posts? I have done it before, but cannot,seem tomget it to work this time.

[Engineer Guy]

I did around 40 years of Self Education on all things Solar, and put those ideas into this Solar Retirement House. Some thoughts...

1. Water [vs., say, Tile] is considered 'Quick Absorption ~ Quick Release'. If one wanted to use Water as Storage, consider the low-height Water Tanks put below Toy Hauler Floors. ~100 Gallons of Storage below the Floor. Heavily insulate 3 sides, but not the top. Then, you'd have a setup analogous to Radiant Floor Tubing clipped onto Joints below Hardwood Floors; a 'standard' Home Retrofit Installation these days.

2. As Mtn Don mentions, 'Food Grade' Antifreeze is both required and smart in case Antifreeze is appropriate.

3. Commercial Shoe Box-size Heat Exchangers are one way to keep Water flows separate. Kinda pricey, but standard in Home Applications.

One Fella used one size of Copper Pipe with 90 degree Fittings near both ends. Beyond those Fittings, he ran smaller diameter Pipe through that, and used Adapters at the ends to seal off and downsize the larger Pipe to the smaller Pipe running through it. Viola! Homebrew Heat Exchanger as warmed Water is run in and out of the larger Pipe. Water to be heated is run straight through the smaller diameter inner Pipe.

4. Malleable Type M Copper Pipe can be coiled up, and used as a Heat Coil. One pricey version of this is meant to be put in Campfire Coals to heat Water pumped through it.

5. Some 1st Gen Solar Folks used 4" or 6" PVC Pipe sections all plumbed in parallel for Water Storage. One version of this allowed ambient finished Basement Heat to 'pre Heat' cold Winter Water coming in from a Well, or City Water Source. It ran first through these bits of PVC connected in parallel.

This could be another Storage idea for Trailers. Consider versions of this below the Floor, or in the back of a Closet. With regard to active heating, one online Source I just checked rates PVC Pipe up to 140 F Degrees.

6. +12 VDC Brass Pumps for Radiant Floor Water circulation are pricey, but very robust.

7. Places I've stayed during Euro Biz Travel had these sleek, gorgeous Radiators in all shapes and sizes. They mount off Walls on Spacers, and are quite thin themselves. Also, there's mechanical Thermostats that plumb right into the Water Line feeding these Radiators. Internal Bimetallic Controls provide intrinsically-simple Room Temp Control with desired Temp Settings printed right on the Adjustment Knob.

8. 'Back in the day', Tankless 'Flash' Water Heaters were not to be used for Radiant Floor Heating Applications/reheating recirculated Water. That Application caused internal failures. I'm not sure of the Failure Mode. So, check into this before buying one; only to void the Warranty.

A 'conventional' RV Water Heater with an Electrical Immersion Heater used for heating Water - then used for Space Heating - would allow Electrical Heating of Water when at an RV Park.

This House has a >R-52 Ceiling, and >R-30 Walls with moderate Passive Solar Gain. The Mantra: 'Heat you never lose, you never have to replace'. So, Super-Insulation is one way to reduce Heating System Requirements; regardless of Fuel type used.

Sources I've read over the years, and ripped ideas from, include 'Mother Earth News Magazine', and 'Home Power Magazine'.

[Prem]

Engineer Guy,

Welcome back

[Engineer Guy]

Thank you Prem! Your's is definitely one of my inspirational Threads here!

Had to detour and finish up more on this Solar Retirement House. Get Sober on my own after Decades of Imbiberologizing. Buy a new Truck. Go Camping more, rather than Posting about it. You know. Life-)

I've been lurking here some, and this Solar topic got me to thinking again, and Post. I dooze love thinking out of the Box.

My 'dream' config was gonna be a pretty wide Cargo Trailer, and put a few inches of rigid PolyIso - 'Thermax' - in the Walls and Ceiling. Also, insulate the Floor. I like the ~R-8/inch rating of Thermax. I planned to leave a slight Air Space outside the Insulation - but, inside the CT Walls - and ventilate it. Just as is done with House Attics. I didn't have time last night to find and read up on 'your' Insulation issues, so didn't want to comment on all that. 'Ignorance is bliss, and I'm a happy Guy' as I like to say about myself.

I scored 8 free Solar Water Collectors. I need about 2 to run this entire House, leaving one to Roof-mount on my dream CT. Alongside a few PV Panels...

Got enchanted with the Gunnison CO area <2 hours away, and the massive Blue Mesa Reservoir. A good Campground there, and one of four 'Loops' has 30/50 Amp Electricity for my Wally World Heater on chilly nights 'up' there at ~7,100'.

The Pic is me camped on a Ranch on the East side of Gunnison in the ole ~15' 'Play-Mor'. They were having a Public Radio Fundraiser, so I set up on the fly to hear 3 good Bands and have a place to not get kicked out of. All for $10-.

OK, back to our regularly-scheduled Topic...

[Prem]

Engineer Guy,

Moving the continuation of this conversation to my thread. See you there.

[dustboy]

The output from consumer solar pool heaters are greatly affected by ambient temperatures, and the output will drop off dramatically with cooler temps. I've got 160 square feet of roll-out pool heaters on my house, and if we have a week of 100 deg. weather we might get our pool up 10 degrees. With 80 degree weather the temperature gain is about half.

I wonder if a PV array with an electric water heater would work better in cold weather? A DC heater would be desirable to eliminate the losses from an AC inverter, although a simple heating coil won't care if it gets AC or DC. The added benefit is a massive amount of solar electricity!

[MtnDon]

Using PV produced electricity is a poor method of making heat. Much better results, higher gains are made with a good liquid or air heat collector and using the heat directly. We use a liquid collector for domestic hot water. That uses a heat exchanger coil in the storage tank. In winter we supplement that with natural gas. We also have a air heat collector. That blows warm air into the living space. The PV is strictly for electrical needs that are lights or motors or electronics. If you do the calculations for watts = BTU you see a low return, considering the best PV panels are still under 20% efficient in changing sun into electrical power.

[Engineer Guy]

As is often the case, this Thread got the Brain re-activated...

Time for me to review what I need in order to get the Radiant Heat Tubing in this 6"-thick Insulated Concrete Floor filled and operating next Season. 2 - 1,500 Watt Electrical 'under Desk' Space Heaters [5,120 BTUs/each] do the trick now of heating the entire House w/9' Ceilings. Passive Solar Gain coming in ~12' through the South-facing Windows during this Winter Solstice period does the rest. However, the commissioning of the Radiant Floor is rising up on my DIY Radar. By Design, this Super-Insulated House never drops below 50 F Degrees; even w/o active heat on -10 F Degree nights.

I ran across this Article. It made me remember that Folks here wanting to muck with Solar heating Water need to address this detail. Intrinsically-safe, Anti-Scalding measures must also be taken. But, that Topic is for another day.

Protecting Water Heating Systems With Expansion Tanks

[KennethW]

On a open loop system. I saw a person just have the 2 end of the pipes go into the bottom of a large jar. When the water expanse the jar fills When the water cools the jar empty's.
http://www.n3fjp.com/solar/construction ... ion101.htm
I have a system that drains back into a tank So I don't need a expanse tank.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sp ... olShed.htm

I cut my heat bill in half on a 70' ranch home(2x4walls).
Sorry if this is off topic. I would not resist.

[lrrowe]

As is often the case, this Thread got the Brain re-activated...

Time for me to review what I need in order to get the Radiant Heat Tubing in this 6"-thick Insulated Concrete Floor filled and operating next Season. 2 - 1,500 Watt Electrical 'under Desk' Space Heaters [5,120 BTUs/each] do the trick now of heating the entire House w/9' Ceilings. Passive Solar Gain coming in ~12' through the South-facing Windows during this Winter Solstice period does the rest. However, the commissioning of the Radiant Floor is rising up on my DIY Radar. By Design, this Super-Insulated House never drops below 50 F Degrees; even w/o active heat on -10 F Degree nights.

I ran across this Article. It made me remember that Folks here wanting to muck with Solar heating Water need to address this detail. Intrinsically-safe, Anti-Scalding measures must also be taken. But, that Topic is for another day.

Protecting Water Heating Systems With Expansion Tanks

Engineer guy,

When I built my house 14 years ago, I had the basis for a radiant system added to my house for me to complete later.
I had Pex added to the concrete slab and tubing added underneath my main floor. I wish I had used the light weight concrete on the main floor. I built the plumbing system myself, including the manifold system. If any pictures would assist or be of interest to you, let me know and I would be glad to share them with you via a PM. By no means am I an expert. But I know it works and my heat pump hardly ever comes on duri g the winter. I relied heavily on a radiant systems company in Vermont. And I am in Southwest VA where it does get down i the teens at time. But not colder then that for the most part.

And if I wanted to invest another $14k for hydronic solar panels and hardware (pumps, tubing and storage tanks) I believe I could almost heat my home using very little electricity and propane. But the payback for me is 7 years out which i cannot accept.

[Engineer Guy]

Many Thanks!

I grabbed a few Pix 'back when' off the 'Net, and took some Pix in Houses under construction locally. So, I think I'm set on Guideline Pix. A local Plumber has a lovely Manifold in his Business Front Window, and I might take a Pic of that, too. But, I've pretty much got it set in my Mind. The kicker is to not forget lil things like Check Valves, and so on...

My focus on the Expansion Tank solution was to try to do something I choose to not do sometimes: stay on Topic here!-) The Expansion Tank solution would be the one for a CT, I would think...

Good stuff! Love it!