Are we over thinking insulation

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

Reckon how much insulation you use would depend on a few variables;
1.) Where you are,
2.) Where you expect to do the majority of your camping,
3.) What your comfort levels are (actually your companion's are if you wish for a pleasant trip).

Based on past experiences.

hank

[bdosborn]

I think it depends on what kind of weather you plan on camping in. I camped in mildly subzero weather in my Teardrop once. It had 3/4" of side insulation and 1-3/4" in the roof. It got pretty chilly that night, even with a 1500W heater running full blast. On the other hand, I know some California campers that are happy with plywood only walls. My standy has 1-3/4" insulation in the walls and 1-3/4" in the roof. I'm pretty sold on wall insulation after camping in weather where I needed every bit of it.

Bruce

[NVCowboy]

I’ve seen videos and build pages and discussion where insulation is taken to some pretty extreme levels, including raised floors, drop ceiling, man door tear down and rebuild. I live in southern NV, which I consider the northern end of temperate America. A few hours north or a few thousand feet in elevation, and cold is a reality. In the summer months hot weather is inescapable in my state.

I’m nearing the end of my 6x12 conversion with only an overhead cabinet and ramp door spring valence left to go.

My insulation is as follows:

1” foam in the walls covered by 1/4 birch.
1” foam / foil bubble wrap ceiling - also birch.
2” foam in the ramp door
I went crazy with the caulking gun, and had a three inch triangle of dust intrusion at the man door over 16 miles of dirt road.
Uninsulated man door and floor.

Climate control:
Boxed in and properly vented window mount a/c unit - smallest that lowes sells. Member FLBoy set me up with the design based on his big conversion using rv refrigerator vents to isolate the intake and exhaust.
Chinese Diesel Heater - I know, but it’s a dry heat.

My experience:

30 degrees overnight, and I woke up on top of my sleeping bag (on low).
88 Degrees @ 6500 feet during middle of the day - full sun, and I took a nap.
105 Degrees @ 2,000 feet, and it’s cool inside.

I still need to test my lower temperature limits over longer term.

Insulation? Absolutely. Overthinking? Probably, but I’m more worried about comfort than efficiency. We’ve all been camping just fine (mostly) in some pretty drafty poorly insulated rv’s over the last 60 years. I’m gonna go with my current design until a cold weather experience proves me wrong, and then it’s under floor and man door. I’ve considered using an old wool blanket to make a curtain for the man door, but not yet.

Later, and stay safe.
Bill

[philpom]

A bit of variety when it comes to insulation approach. To answer your question, I am not so sure you are over thinking it if it's a priority for you. It's your camper after all.

We have camped in temps below 20f in a nylon tent and stayed warm. I opted in my design to insulate with 1.75" of rigid foam in the ceiling and 1.75" of rigid foam plus 1/2" of soft foam for the floor. The door has a foam core but the walls are just 3/4" birch. There is of course a large airgap between the cabin and the "trunk" but the windows are large for plenty of airflow. We live and most often camp in Texas so staying cool is the biggest concern while I don't anticipate staying warm will be an issue. The camper would probably hold pressure it's so tight.

[Apples]

...I live in southern NV, which I consider the northern end of temperate America.

I’m nearing the end of my 6x12 conversion with only an overhead cabinet and ramp door spring valence left to go.

My insulation is as follows:

1” foam in the walls covered by 1/4 birch.
1” foam / foil bubble wrap ceiling - also birch.
2” foam in the ramp door
I went crazy with the caulking gun, and had a three inch triangle of dust intrusion at the man door over 16 miles of dirt road.
Uninsulated man door and floor.

Thanks, Bill, for your detailed reply. After you caulked everything you could, was it then that you still saw dust intrusion? How about a filtered fan into the trailer cabin with no known exit? Do you think that would keep some of the dust out?

Climate control:
Boxed in and properly vented window mount a/c unit - smallest that lowes sells. Member FLBoy set me up with the design based on his big conversion using rv refrigerator vents to isolate the intake and exhaust.
Chinese Diesel Heater - I know, but it’s a dry heat.

My experience:

30 degrees overnight, and I woke up on top of my sleeping bag (on low).
88 Degrees @ 6500 feet during middle of the day - full sun, and I took a nap.
105 Degrees @ 2,000 feet, and it’s cool inside.

What watt rating is your heater? 4K? 2K?

I'm converting a 5' X 10' cargo rig to a "1.5-person" camper for hangin' out in the desert when ambient temps are below 80*F and above 20*F... have ready to install a 2K watt diesel heater.

1" beadboard insulation in the walls, 2 layers foil bubble-pack in the ceiling (it's an arched ceiling side-to-side) and for the curved front. I too am using 1/4" birch for all the walls... I'm not going to insulate the floor. It's 3/4" fir plywood tossed down by the trailer maker (bunch of hacks! but, hey, it's a volume deal). Would like to do a little linoleum at the rear (galley) and for the forward bunk hallway.

Thanks in advance for your reply to my diesel heater question.

[Shadow Catcher]

1.5" EPS Makes a big difference

[Kerry8620]

In 2015 I bought a Mirage 5x10 cargo trailer and asked that they insulate it. Mirage used silver bubble wrap on the outside before they installed the steel sheeting. It has an R-value of 3 and acts like a vapor barrier too. This summer I painted the roof white with Henry's solar paint. That reflects a lot of the sunlight and keeps the trailer cooler. I also added two inches of pink foam under the 3/4 trailer floor. That was a surprisingly easy install and only took about 4 hours. The foam is compressible and if cut carefully fits in between the steel C beams well. I used 3-inch sheet metal screws with 1-inch fender washers to hold it in place. Then I painted the foam with some exterior house paint. I filled the cracks with spray foam.

About a month later I drove 6,000 miles cross country with the trailer. The foam is still like new even after going over dirt roads. I camped in places where the temps dropped to 40 degrees Fahrenheit. The floor was noticeably warmer than on previous cold nights. I used to get a nasty layer of cold air just above the floor that chilled my wool-clad feet. No more. The floor is warmer and the entire trailer feels warmer. I am able to hold 30 degrees without a problem. I use an Olympian heater and set it to low. That keeps me warm all night. I keep one window open just a tad, about 1/4 inch, for fresh air for the heater.

Next summer I will insulate the ceiling with at least an inch and maybe two inches of pink foam. Since the ceiling is curved I may use two one-inch sheets to match the bend.
This winter I may do the doors with one-inch pink foam or whatever fits.

Insulating has made a tremendous difference.

[hankaye]

Kerry8620, Howdy;



hank

[NVCowboy]

...I live in southern NV, which I consider the northern end of temperate America.

I’m nearing the end of my 6x12 conversion with only an overhead cabinet and ramp door spring valence left to go.

My insulation is as follows:

1” foam in the walls covered by 1/4 birch.
1” foam / foil bubble wrap ceiling - also birch.
2” foam in the ramp door
I went crazy with the caulking gun, and had a three inch triangle of dust intrusion at the man door over 16 miles of dirt road.
Uninsulated man door and floor.

Thanks, Bill, for your detailed reply. After you caulked everything you could, was it then that you still saw dust intrusion? How about a filtered fan into the trailer cabin with no known exit? Do you think that would keep some of the dust out?

Climate control:
Boxed in and properly vented window mount a/c unit - smallest that lowes sells. Member FLBoy set me up with the design based on his big conversion using rv refrigerator vents to isolate the intake and exhaust.
Chinese Diesel Heater - I know, but it’s a dry heat.

My experience:

30 degrees overnight, and I woke up on top of my sleeping bag (on low).
88 Degrees @ 6500 feet during middle of the day - full sun, and I took a nap.
105 Degrees @ 2,000 feet, and it’s cool inside.

What watt rating is your heater? 4K? 2K?

I'm converting a 5' X 10' cargo rig to a "1.5-person" camper for hangin' out in the desert when ambient temps are below 80*F and above 20*F... have ready to install a 2K watt diesel heater.

1" beadboard insulation in the walls, 2 layers foil bubble-pack in the ceiling (it's an arched ceiling side-to-side) and for the curved front. I too am using 1/4" birch for all the walls... I'm not going to insulate the floor. It's 3/4" fir plywood tossed down by the trailer maker (bunch of hacks! but, hey, it's a volume deal). Would like to do a little linoleum at the rear (galley) and for the forward bunk hallway.

Thanks in advance for your reply to my diesel heater question.

Sorry for my slow response.

I was originally planning on going batshit crazy over dust intrusion. The intrusion on my last trip which is as bad as it’s gonna get was so minimal that I’m not going to worry about it.

Your 2k heater should be fine for your small trailer. I included some pictures of converting a rotopax for the heater fuel tank. The factory tanks are manure.

I covered my plywood in vinyl flooring, and it looks good for a minute. My prep sucked and adhesion is suspect in places.







Later, and stay safe.
Bill

[Vnose]

This is along the lines of my thread about insulation over existing ply walls and then putting up another interior wall, space and weight not an issue compared to the basic construction of SIP walls.

I think insulation is really over done in cargo trailers, except the roof.

My Army days, at Ft. Drum in January, with a windchill of 52 below ZERO, my snow cave was comfy, we had a GP medium tent, a canvas tent, with a diesel heater, it was 65-70 degrees. Today, the Army has insulated tents and many ride in AC vehicles.

I've seen hundreds of conversions, listened to lifers on the road, most everyone will say my heater will run you out of the trailer and that the A/C gets cold enough to hang meat......so they claim.

Does that mean they have huge heaters and zillions of A/C BTU's? No, it means the trailer is well insulated, might be too well insulated, which can have other issues, like mold, mildew and pharts that hang in the air for 30 minutes.

Right, your foam insulation is M/M resistant, what about all the other material items left in the trailer? The better insulated a trailer is, the greater the issue with moisture. (Thats a period after moisture) How many campers have water damage and don't have a leak?

Since I'm not paying a big utility bill for my trailer (like a house) I don't really care, basically, if the furnace is half way or three quarters of the way up, and often you'll open a window to let fresh air in while heating the place. Seems odd that some folks use a window as a thermostat.

Then you stick a vent fan in the roof, usually left operable so that negates the effort of insulating the roof. Just a layer of Reflex can cover that.

My 6 x 14 cargo V Nose is silver, on a hot day it seems a bit cooler as it's generally in the shade. It's warmer in the winter, just sitting there. There is an air space between the metal and the interior plywood walls, painted and wood joints covered. The ramp door isn't insulated, probably 3/4 ply with a rubber flooring material and it seals pretty well. The uninsulated RV door almost has to be slammed shut, that's because it's fairly air tight as it sits.

Unless you're a ski bunny or a summer surfer, most seem to travel with mild weather. But, always be prepared, last year Texas had ice storms, weather extremes will be more common.

A friend of mine is a P.E., his opinion is that 1 or even a half inch over my existing plywood with another interior wall covering and 1 1/5 " in the ceiling constructed the same way would allow me to survive just fine with 5000 btu A/C and 10,000 btu propane heater. Basically, it would be a poor man's SIP wall and ceiling build.

God didn't give me a fur coat but he gave me a brain to know when to wear clothes and shoes.

[hankaye]

Vnose, Howdy;

Agree with your thoughts, appreciate your taking the time to share them too.

hank

[Gulfcoast]

An air space has an R-value of 1 (1/2" to 4").... pitiful.

My Polyiso board (Home Depot) has an R-value of 6, so that's what I went with.

I don't regret packing in all the insulation I could in every space.

[S. Heisley]

My thought/question/concern is does ramping up to say an R15 really do anything greater than say an R5 on the walls when 15 to 20% of your wall space is hovering around an R1 at best?

I firmly believe that 3/4" of foam in a sandwich wall is fine.

Tony

Agree.... I think the R5 in the walls does the trick. I did 2 layers of polyiso (~ R10) in the ceiling and a solid 2inces of Styrofoam under the floor however. Floor was for the cold weather camping I may do from time to time. My poor dog lays on the floor.

I also agree with Tony. I have 3/4" Styrofoam in the top, bottom and all sides. In some parts of the ceiling, I was able to add an extra 1/2" but I'm not certain if that did much. I've been very comfortable with what is there and I've camped down to 27 degrees and up to around 90 degrees. I think the small size of the cabin area helps because body heat doesn't dissipate much. (My guess.) As yet, I have not used a heater but just bringing water to boil raises the temperature in the cabin 5 to 10 degrees. I do use a fan in the summer to help push air through open windows and I often leave the door open when I cook. (My galley is inside.)

[John61CT]

If you are fulltiming in ski area parking lots or Canada / Alaska all winter, your needs are different from weekenders in more temperate locations

[bdosborn]

3/4" in the wall, 1-1/2" in the roof and it was barely enough in 0F weather. And that's with a 1500W electric heater running almost non-stop.


I'll scrimp on some things but insulation isn't one of them.
Bruce