Don & Christi's 6 x 10 Cargo Conversion

[d30gaijin]

A few reality checks to consider are to observe or measure what's on commercial RVs to avoid getting nicked on trivia like the Marine Connector.

Camping World or Leviton Websites or a Big Box Store are some places to reality check. On subsequent Electrical stuff, even a Wholesale Electrical joint might let you see/measure stuff [like a Connector diameter]. For example, a small Electrical Breaker Box can handle '1/2 width' Breakers. So, more Breakers fit a smaller, 60 Amp Box. There's one Square D Breaker [and only one I'm aware of] that's also rated for low voltage DC use. I poke around Recycling places to look at or buy used equipment.

The State Code guy busted my chops at my new House for using a bit of 15 Amp #14 AWG Wire hidden 'down the line' for Lighting connections, even though I had a 15 Amp Breaker with 'oversized' 20 Amp [#12 AWG] Wire at the Breaker Box. I had a guano-load of #12 Wire around, so it used it for a few Lighting circuits. The 'logic' was that some subsequent doofus might see the 20 Amp-compatible Wire at the Breaker Box, and stick in a 20 Amp Breaker as a 15 Amp replacement someday. Then, I would have had a few bits of 15 Amp Wire where no one could have seen it post-Drywall; an arguable fire hazard. So, to protect against the really stupid person who would have switched to a larger Breaker w/o reason in an obvious, well-labeled, 15 Amp Lighting circuit, I had to replace some Wire and make it all #12 AWG. No big deal...

Moral: be sure to use Wire rated the same ampacity as any Connector or Breaker you might install. It's not for Code, it's for 'safety'.

Sorry to hear of the initial Connector hassle, but thanks for posting that design 'event' for others. Pix and stories are always good.

Engineer Guy,

Reality check in deed. After my in-let fiasco I started doing a lot more searching and even Camping World has the same Marine inlet shown as a "Standard RV 30 amp inlet." Unfortunately we don't have a Camping World store local to us to have a look see, nor any fully stocked RV parts suppliers and the pictures some of the on-line RV supply outfits put up don't show sufficient detail. But I am learning and doing a lot more searching of this forum, tons of great advice here just have to root it out.

I've got a question up in the Electrical Secrets forum about circuit breaker sizes. I planned on installing 15 amp breakers and 12-2 wiring but am now wondering if I shouldn't have at least one 20 amp breaker (2 breaker circuit). I only envision running an 800 watt household microwave, a 5k btu window type air conditioner, and a AC/DC converter at the same time. Any thought as to should I put the microwave and AC on a 20 amp breaker?

Thanks,
Don

[d30gaijin]

Engineer Guy, Chuckles2153, & MadJack,

I want to thank each of you for your input. It is a tremendous help!

I went with a 2 breaker 2 circuit 30 amp box as shown in this thread http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=20164 about 1/4 of the way down the page, the post by Miriam C. I will go with QO 20 amp breakers. I want to get it roughed in from the inlet to the breaker box and two 12-2 wires out of the breaker box and will deal with the rest of the wiring later. I'm going what seems like six different direction on my project i.e., still working on finishing up interior insulation, getting a start on AC wiring while considering DC wiring and what is existing, building the cabinets that will go in the nose section, installing a sink, and some rudimentary plumbing to/from it, getting the existing plywood floor ready for installation of Linoleum, etc.

Again, your help is truly appreciated (I will also repost this in the CT Conversion forum if that's OK?... just in case you didn't see it in the ES forum).

Don

[d30gaijin]

Made more progress on the AC side electrical today, wired and installed the 2 circuit 2 breaker box.


Another shot of the installed breaker box along with the sink and faucet (if you notice the uneven gap in the forward plywood paneling it came that way from the factory. I simply reinstalled the paneling after pulling it to install insulation because I didn't want to drill new holes in the metal frame to fix something that won't be seen i.e., it will be covered by thin wall paneling).


Initial sink and faucet fit-up (ABS plastic sink new for $16 + shipping, very light weight).

[Camper]

Hey your trailer is coming along pretty good. I like the sink,i have been pondering about possibly putting one in my trailer a well .Have not made a final decision on it.No new pictures of mine as i have had no time to work on it.

[d30gaijin]

Hey your trailer is coming along pretty good. I like the sink,i have been pondering about possibly putting one in my trailer a well .Have not made a final decision on it.No new pictures of mine as i have had no time to work on it.

Camper,
Thank you for your comments. My progress is slow. I haven't sat down and thoroughly thought it all out so I am sort of designing as I go , bad craziness on my behalf. Be that as it may, I have an overall idea of what I want but will no doubt go through trials and changes as I go. I also have the same problem in that haven't had much time to work on it now that I am back to work (had a few days off last week but that is done), and now that the heat is here it will reduce my desire to go out and work on the conversion.

Will be heading to Three Island Crossing State Park the week after this one coming for the weekend of the 4th (will be there on vacation the 3rd through the 7th). Glenn's Ferry puts on one of the best 4th of July parades and fireworks displays I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of fireworks displays.

Don

[Shadow Catcher]

Looking good.
Remember to include a GFI in the circuits (you only need one for each). What are you doing for 12V circuits?

[d30gaijin]

Looking good.
Remember to include a GFI in the circuits (you only need one for each). What are you doing for 12V circuits?

SC,

I made a little more progress on the AC side electrical today. For the DC side I have an AC/DC converter from a 70's vintage RV. It will plug into the GFI outlet shown in the photo below. The switch between the breaker and the GFI outlet is so I can turn the converter off if I want or need to. I suppose I could have just used the circuit breaker for that but I don't feel circuit breakers are intended as on/off type switches, besides I love redundancy.

Along with the AC/DC converter, which puts out 14.2 volts, I will put in a battery tender/minder to charge the batteries when I have AC power. Beyond that the DC side will be pretty minimal i.e., for running the interior/exterior lights and a couple of cigar lighter type outlets for any 12v stuff we might run, but mostly we'll run 120v AC because we prefer to camp in camp grounds where they have hook ups, showers, etc.

Everything in the photo below will be enclosed (hidden away) by cabinet doors so I wasn't too concerned with making the wiring look beautiful.

One thing of note; The 12-2 wire I am using is outdoor rated because my local Home Depot didn't have any 25 foot rolls of 12-2 Romex type indoor wire in stock (I would have had to buy a 100 foot roll, which I didn't need). In a way I regret that because the outdoor 12-2 is an absolute PITA (pain in the a$$) to work with in tight spaces and sharp turns, which is why the GFI outlet feeds from a loop to the bottom instead of running straight down into the outlet (and placing the outlet directly below its on/off switch), a case of form follows function because of the the materials on hand. I simply could not make it work and be able to screw the outlet box in place on the wall, not to mention the outdoor stuff is a PITA to strip to get to the three inner wires. But then again, I am learning a lot of things... the hard way. And so it goes...



Don

[Engineer Guy]

Looking Good!

'Free advice is worth every penny paid', as I like to say, so here's some minutiae to incorporate or ignore.

1. Yah, #12 AWG wire is a royal PITA, and I wired a guano load of it in my new Solar House. I sprung $ for some specialty Pliers. W/o nicking, they strip the outer Romex as well as inner conductors on #12 and #14. They have a ridged tip to bend wire into the desired horseshoe shape. A-R guy that I am, I use Receptacle side screws to engage more wire surface area. I don't like or use the captive, 'shove in' Receptacle connections when trying to carry 20 Amps current. Not enough surface area contact for my intuition. Nice touch, BTW, in springing $ for a 20 Amp GFI, and in using box grommets. Plus, the outdoor wire will protect your wiring against UV degradation! ;-0

2. Round, stranded cable is best stripped with a sharp Razor Knife. That Knife, or the Tool above, can then strip inner conductor insulation with the 'right' touch used.

3. Vibration can be rough on solid wire over the years. Consider securing, say, 'longer' wire runs from your side box to your Breaker box. I assume this is part of your final build out plan.

The current that wire and Breakers can handle is temperature-dependent. Breakers trip thermally. So, internal Trailer/Cabinet temp and ambient temp all play into the current they open at. #12 AWG is conservatively rated to carry 23 Amps continuously in one Table on line. BPFox mentions:

You might want to consider up grading your wiring from the 30 amp inlet to the breaker box to 10 gauge wire. While I understand it's a pretty short run, it is the "weak link" in your system at 12 guage. You will also want a 10 guage extension cord to the power supply pole and use the 30amp recepticle plug at the pole not the 20 amp recepticle. If you prepare your system for maximum usage, you should not have a problem.

In the strictest Code sense, BPFox [and madjack] are correct re: using #10 AWG. The worse case current-carrying scenario would be your A/C Compressor kicking on WHEN the Hot Plate or Microwave also draw max current momentarily. Decide for yourself the desired safety level vs. the hassle factor of re-wiring. As another Poster mentioned in her experience with #12 wire and 30 Amp input max, you'll likely live to tell about it while using #12 wire. This is because max current draw is usually momentary, not steady state. Divide Appliance Watts by an assumed 115 Volts to see total Amps drawn. Lower Campground voltages may/will cause higher Amps to be drawn to supply the necessary Watts, and this will thermally trip a Breaker 'more' easily. This is a common scenario where Real Life trumps design calculations, especially when Big Rigs pull lots o'current during peak Camping times. Even w/o a Voltmeter, you'll develop an 'ear' for when voltage drops by listening to your Microwave.

You could probably buy a scrap length of #10 AWG at Home Despot or elsewhere. I looked at your prior pic and missed the text detail re: using a 30 Amp Receptacle w/#12 wire. If you're very careful with clamp down detail, you can run a 2nd bit of #12 AWG cable in parallel from the input receptacle to your Breaker box. This roughly doubles current-carrying capacity. Me, I would put Loctite on the screw heads - and not in the circuit path - to ensure no loosening over time, or with vibration. Twist bare wires together before clamping down. Multiple wires in/out of Breakers is Code kosher in CO.

Our circa '87 Tract House is now considered 'under-wired' with then-Code 125 Amp Service, due to 'new' demands from current-sucking gizmos. Some Neighbors have had to rewire Service to 200 Amps after House sale Inspections for 'exacting' Buyers. I don't plan to do so. However, likewise consider future use and growth in your Trailer over the years when assessing current draw.

[d30gaijin]

Engineer Guy,

Wow! Thank you! That is a lot of excellent advice and I truly appreciate that you took the time to share it with me, and I will not quibble about the price. Only thing that causes me pause is the thought of trying to route 10 gauge from the inlet to the breaker box. Gees, working with 12 gauge was bad enough, but I suspect you're right and I will do that down the road but will make sure to use Romex indoor type rather than the heavy plastic molded over-coated outdoor stuff. That should make it a little easier, well I hope so anyway.

With that said, today I received my adapter pigtail to go from Marine 30 amp inlet to 20 amp type plug. It's a behemoth of a pigtail with 10 gauge wire inside. That allowed me to plug into the house to check my circuits for shorts, grounds, and general screw-ups in my wiring with my multi-meter, and then a load test with a hair dryer and a vacuum cleaner. Everything seems fine, well at least I wasn't killed instantly touching anything (see little green light on the GFI in the second photo below). For the second circuit out of the breaker box I will go with two outlets above the counter top the sink is mounted to, the first will be another GFI and down-stream of that a second standard outlet.




Don

[campinwi]

Thanks for all the detailed postings. I want my husband to put electricity in my trailer, he wasn't sure how, this will greatly help! Thanks again!

[Shadow Catcher]

Not likely to be a problem but I think stranded wire is supposed to be used for mobile applications (less danger of breaking)? The 12V power centers by Progressive Dynamics and WAFCO us conventional automotive blade fuses (I keep spares).

I stand corrected http://cjbfire.com/ManSample.pdf Stranded for 12V solid for 110V. Interesting reading on how to investigate RV fires.

[d30gaijin]

Thanks for all the detailed postings. I want my husband to put electricity in my trailer, he wasn't sure how, this will greatly help! Thanks again!

Campinwi,

I'm glad I can be of some help. So many others here have helped me get where I am on my conversion so I am happy to return the favor. Be sure and have your husband look at this thread too. It really helped me: http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=20164

Have a great 4th!

Don

[d30gaijin]

Not likely to be a problem but I think stranded wire is supposed to be used for mobile applications (less danger of breaking)? The 12V power centers by Progressive Dynamics and WAFCO us conventional automotive blade fuses (I keep spares).

I stand corrected http://cjbfire.com/ManSample.pdf Stranded for 12V solid for 110V. Interesting reading on how to investigate RV fires.

SC,

Thank you for the additional information. Cautionary advice is always welcomed. And thank you for the link to the RV fires investigation. It was interesting reading.

There won't be any progress report for the next week as we are headed out of town on a camping trip for the 4th of July weekend and extending that through next Thursday (8th). I won't be doing anything with the conversion until we get back and get squared away after being gone. It will be camping on the Snake River in our Jayco 165, kicked back, with a relaxed BBQ, sipping a toddy in the evening, bird watching during the day, shooting some photos, attending a small town Americana 4th of July Parade in Glenns Ferry Idaho, and watching one of the best 4th of July Fireworks displays we've ever seen put on by the town of Glenns Ferry (beats the heck out of the lame Boise fireworks display)

And a good time will be had by Don & Christi, and we hope the same for you and everyone on the TTTT Forums. Let us never forget what the 4th of July actually represents.

Don

[GPW]

Just an idea... For all that trouble and expense , it would seem just a really GOOD GFI extension cord would do the trick ... You could even run it through the floor with an appropriate size hole and weather/road flap ...SIMPLE !!!

[d30gaijin]

Just an idea... For all that trouble and expense , it would seem just a really GOOD GFI extension cord would do the trick ... You could even run it through the floor with an appropriate size hole and weather/road flap ...SIMPLE !!!

While that is a simple solution I prefer something a little more fixed and will go the wall mounted outlet way. I feel I have the knowledge and the time to to go with something a little more sophisticated that suits my needs. But thank you just the same for your excellent advice.

Been camping for a week on the mighty Snake River in Idaho, kicked back and enjoying life. Now it is back to the 6x10 cargo conversion and I hope to report more progress soon.

Don