6x12 CTC log cabin.

Converting Cargo Trailers into TTTs

Postby pete42 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:52 pm

when and if I get a trailer even though I've read and seen the E-Track I never considered it.
But I have changed my mine don't know why but reading about your build the little light went off and I thought that does make sense so thanks.

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Postby vreihen » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:40 pm

Wolfscout wrote:I had a wild idea

What about using aluminum construction studs for the bed cross pieces?


Although probably a little bit out of some people's price range, these puppies will hold 3,000 pounds across your E-track:

http://www.shipperssupplies.com/ETrack/ETrackHeavyDutyAluminumShoringBeam96/

There are steel and lighter aluminum options available on that site as well.....
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One Bed Platform Idea

Postby Engineer Guy » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:55 pm

I've built or upgraded 3 King Size Beds in the last few years. I used what I call 'Glider Wing' or 'Stress Skin' construction. I wanted clear span under the Beds, and a firm surface under our stout Foam Mattresses.

As with Engineered Beams, Wood holds a great deal of weight if held vertical on edge. Whereas 2 bys add weight, you'll find that 'the same' amount of Lumber in, say, a 1 x 3 or 1 x 4 maintained on edge does better.

The other key part of the concept is to make Plywood [and not OSB] into one Assembly [like 1/2 a Wing surface]. Use plenty of Glue before screwing the 1 bys to the Ply. 1/4" Ply and 1 bys on 12" centers cross-wise will support more than one might intuitively assume...
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Postby Wolfscout » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:02 am

Engineer Guy,
1x3 or 1x4 would be strong enough with plywood sheeting to do what I'm planning?
I've not considered using 1x s - that would reduce weight . hrmmm.
I've bought enough lumber holders to do 6 width ways and I was going to go with at least 1/2 inch plywood sheeting beneath a California King Foam mattress.
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The Fine Print

Postby Engineer Guy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:18 am

I'll 'weasel word' my answer just short of a b/w 'yes' or 'no' on which size 1 bys to pick, and pass along what I learned...

1. Someone here used only 1/2" Ply for their Bed Support. It worked fine. What's happening in what I built is the Ply is simply spreading the load between the 1 bys WHILE adding intrinsic Ply strength, obviously.

2. This same effect is true with the 1 bys. The Load is spread to several of them simultaneously [Glue helps achieve this]. Glue also makes this Assembly act like one side of an Engineered Lumber Joist; stronger than you might intuitively think... And, so, the question is 'will 3 or 4 - 1" x 4"s [not just 1] support the load put on them. They will. Choose 1 bys w/o Knots, or put the Knot at the bottom of the span.

3. We all sit up and on the edge of a Bed [concentrating the load momentarily], and then get up. However, this doesn't happen at the 'Head' end. So, toss out the notion that each 1 by span has to be uniformly spaced at, say, 12". The 'Body Mass' part of the Bed is where the true support has to be. Head and Feet; not so much. So, perhaps 16" on center for the 1 bys is fine there. Put in more 1 bys for the Body Mass: Shoulders to Hips. Double up 1 bys at the Foot end only if folks are going to sit there. Keep an open Mind, and tweak where you put the 1 bys. We're not building a Floor here to hold a Piano!

4. If you can, and want to, try a mock up. Put some 1 bys near the ground on some scrap Lumber. Nail the ends with a 1 x 2 to keep them from falling over, Dominoes-style. Put even a scrap a 1/4" of Ply [or OSB] on them and lay on it. Tweak the Design as necessary...

Once you choose the Bed Frame Lumber specifics, realize that Glue will help in that it makes the entire Assembly a uniform item that really spreads the Load over several pieces. Think 'Airplane/Glider Wing' or 'Bird Wing': light but strong.

As with Lumber Tables for Building Floor Spans, an assumption here is that there will be some Bed deflection when you lay down [more than at Home]. That's fine. All you want is deflection reliably short of Bed cracking and failure, right? ;) I HIGHLY recommend a Mock-Up Model, first, to avoid disappointment and blowing useless $$ at the Big Box Store. Do a partial Mock-up and lay cross-ways on it for testing.

I WAY over-built an old Bed Decades ago and we still giggle when we have to move that monster between Rooms occasionally. 2" x 10" Frame; 1/2" Ply; 4" x 4"s to hold up the Ply center seam; total overkill vs. simply holding up ~500 lbs. over the sq. footage of a Queen or King Size Foam Mattress [2 Humans + 1 big Dog]. If a Ply seam or two is necessary, put it a foot from the edge; not in the Bed center.

Rather than using Deck Hanger Hardware, or weakening the ends of the 1 bys - due to screwing into them - I notched out the bottom of my 1 bys. I rested them on a 1" x 1" glued and screwed to the bottom edge of the visible Walnut Wood Bed Frame. That made this entire 'Glider Wing' Mattress-support Assembly invisible from the Bed exterior; no Screws marred the finish. You've already got them, so the Hangers are fine, of course...

To be very conservative, consider 1" by 6"s. Recycle the space between those 'deep' 1 bys to store Gear. Alternately, consider 'more' 1" x 4"s with less spacing on center in the Body Mass area if Bed Frame depth is an issue.

If you've got the 1/2" Ply, use that, obviously. My comments are 'Blue Sky' Design considerations for those really wanting to trim down TT or CT weight incrementally. 1/4" Ply worked great for me for several 6'-wide King Beds w/Foam Mattresses.
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Postby Wolfscout » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:38 pm

I had originally built a full size bed frame for a "normal" full bed mattress out of 2 x 6s and 3/4 plywood. all very solid all very HEAVY.
4 concrete blocks 8x8x16s with 2 solid concrete bricks were my legs. at the time.
The first time we pulled the camper loaded we noticed the weight of the bed. back end was heavy.
you can see that bed setup here early on
Image
I took out the frame and the blocks. That frame now lays in my guest room for a spare bed.
Since then we've been standing the mattress on end and roping it to the wall till we needed it.
I'm building this bed California King.. to get a CK foam mattress to go in there. Only planning to trim off any extra width. So that is why I've gotten the Etrack.
I get your explanation but bit concerned about 1/4 plywood. I'm going to have to be cognizant of the weight so I'll give the 1/4 a try.
I'm glad that heavy ass bed -frame and concrete isn't in my camper anymore.
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Postby pete42 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 pm

most travel trailers use 1/4 inch plywood on their bench's, couch's beds seem to be 1/2 inch thick.

Do you think the 1X3's or 1X4's would twist or would you use braces like is used on floor joist if so maybe 2X4's would end up being lighter.

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Eliminating Warps

Postby Engineer Guy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:33 pm

Gluing the 1 by tops to the Ply bottom eliminates warpage, unless seriously-wet Lumber is used.

The Overkill Builder can also attach, or let in, a 1 by or thin metal Strap up the center bottom of all the 1 bys. This stabilizes each 1 by in the center, not allowing them to shift or warp laterally. This, and plenty of Wood Glue, is what makes for a rigid Assembly, and overcomes the counter-intuitive impression that 1/4" Ply is 'too' frail. All the Ply is having to do is span from one Lumber piece to the next.

For the Record, I'd likely use 1" x 4"s minimum for a clear, 6' wide King Bed span.

My Avion Couch/Bed uses 1/4" Ply just fine. And, hey, there's always 3/8" Ply. The Lumber underneath is 1" x 3"s BUT the front edge of the Couch supports the ~4' wide Bed ~2/3rds of the way out from the back. So, the 1" x 3"s are not attempting to span 6' clear.
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Postby Wolfscout » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:16 pm

The Wood end socket for Etrack is built to hold a 2x. I suppose I can use the pieces cut to fit, glued and screwed to fill those sockets on each end.
Still going with the couch/bed idea. Still going to use a 2foot section as a back rest.
Just need to go get some lumber now.
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Postby pete42 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:58 pm

I'm sure no matter what you use you will figure out how to make it work.

Engineer Guy
I forgot about those metal cross braces they would be light don't know if they are needed doing it like you said. glued & screwed.
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Postby Wolfscout » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:35 am

Well, I took off for the hardware store this AM.
I was just not impressed by the 1x4s they had. very knotty, and bendy length wise.
I have been thinking.. on the weight my bed platform may be expected to hold now or in the future.
I'd rather have it built with 2xs glued and screwed than not.
I went with untreated 2x4s but to 663/4s That is the size that fits between my Etrack rails.
I cut the panels 24 inch at 67 inches x three. I'll have three sections that make up the bed. two that make a sofa and one that goes behind the back rest out of the way for more floor space in the camper.
glued and screwed down the back section. The rest I'm going to wait till I have the foam and can cut the foam up into sections. Because temporarily I'm using a full size mattress... it's more convenient.
tossed the mattress back on top of it all and maneuvered it into place. it works great. just the right height to get a 5 gallon bucket with tote lid on under and tote storage boxes. I'm content for now.
I should be getting the foam mattress in a couple weeks.
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Nice E Track Solution

Postby Engineer Guy » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:39 am

Those E Track end braces look really sharp. They caught my eye as being far more functional and 'elegant' than Deck Hardware 'stuff' from any Big Box Store. Not to mention, I'm sure they could support our cumulative Family weight of 2 'growing Adults' and 1 big Dog!

Gluing on a 1 by scrap to the end of Bed-supporting 1 bys would make the ends the same width as a 2" x 4", and a good fit, it appears... In any case, the E Track solution is now a mentally Bookmarked one...

Engineered Joists, and the strength of Lumber placed 'on end', are on the Brain here. We just got a 3 piece, ~1,500 sq. ft. well-insulated, Modular 'Display Sample' Garage - bought 'gently used' for a Song - reassembled on a Concrete Pad here. The 2nd Story of the middle section [our future Guest Apartment] uses Engineered Joists to span 16' clear w/o noticeable Floor deflection. Amazing Product, especially given that they're made of scrap Lumber bits. Man, nothing like having an 'instant' Building in a few weeks from purchase.

The Trussed Roof 'hinged down' for transport to clear Telephone and Power Lines. Then, it folded back up into the usual Barn Roof profile. And, I finally will have a proper, well-powered Shop in one Building 'wing' w/a large parking Pad adjacent for fiddling with TTs! One less excuse to not make progress on Projects!
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Postby Wolfscout » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:44 am

Having a working workshop is a goal of mine even before I became disabled.
I have a bedroom with tools wall to wall.. can't get to half of it at all.
and yes.. the Etrack http://www.uscargocontrol.com/Van-Trailer-Products/E-Track-Straps-Tie-Downs has surprised me today with it's solidness. I'm happy.
I also picked up two of those O-ring http://www.uscargocontrol.com/Van-Trailer-Products/E-Track-Straps-Tie-Downs/E-Track-Tie-Down-W-Round-Ring-Heavy-Duty for securing bicycles inside. They are doing great this AM as well.
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Postby pete42 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:41 pm

don't you just love it when something works out? :thumbsup:

today everything I tried to do turned to stinky-stuff. :cry:

I should have known things were going to go wrong I woke up feeling good, most mornings I wake up feeling bad.

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Postby Wolfscout » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:48 pm

etrack pics.

Note.. it's sorta loaded up for a trip this weekend minus the bicycles.
Image
this is two sections up.. and one waiting. so I have room for the bikes.

This one is a view from the back door with pop awning and chairs on top of the bed frame.
Image

I get to try it out starting tomorrow.
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