A couple questions before I build

[Stainless]

Hi there,

I'm neck deep in my planning for a cargo conversion, and I've got a couple questions for those who have been down this road before. Forgive me if these are old questions; I did plenty of reading and searched the forum, but I imagine it's possible that I missed something.

I intend to build a 7x12 cargo for boondock camping deep into the Rocky Mountain wilderness. The two biggest factors for me are ruggedness and weight. I'll be pulling this contraption through steep, mountainous trails with a lifted 1997 V6 4Runner, so I can't have a heavy pig.

1) Direct Buy Trailers seems to be really affordable (http://www.directbuytrailers.com/invent ... 14sae.html). Cost is certainly a factor, so I like the prices, but cheap always makes me suspicious. I haven't seen anyone unleashing hatred upon these trailers... any opinions? A sub-$3000 7x12 SA with a 6'6" height sounds good to me if it's not complete garbage.

2) There are a lot of basket case tent trailers for sale around here, so I've been thinking that I could shave a bunch of cost by picking up a $200 trailer with decent appliances, stripping the good stuff and then selling the frame as a junk hauler. I haven't seen anyone talk about doing this before... any experiences? Even if I just get a fridge and furnace out of the deal, I'd be a happy guy.

Thanks for your input.

S

[madjack]

...not a CC guy but, I would ask these questions...can that trailer stand up to the kinda abuse you plan to put it thru...off roading can be VERY hard on a trailer, especially if it was designed/intended to be a hiway queen...didn't see anything about weight of trailer, you said you didn't wanna pig...can you upgrade to a 3500#axle. and keep the lighter weight springs...or would you want the heavier springs to stand up to the roads you'll be using...and last, would you consider building your own to get a lighter unit which might well be more capable off road......
madjack

p.s. I see it come std with a drop axle...that will make it ride lower...might wanna see if it can be had with out one...you will need that extra ground clearance.......mj

[BC_Explorer]

When planning for my CT to convert (which will be ordered soon) I had some of the same thoughts/questions as you. After months of research and talking with many knowledgable people, I concluded that a CT is a great trailer to convert for light off-road, meaning all weather, good graded forest service roads use but not for most secondary roads where there are large potholes, uneven track etc. In saying this, I don't mean single track non-maintained trails as they are in a whole other category...

One of the main issues with a CT is that they are wide, tall, long and they flex easily which could lead to popped rivet/screws and the sides of the trailer exterior can show some distotion patterns. One of the local dealers here showed me a photo of a trailer that had this problem after the owner pulled the trailer over some roads (not trails) that were more suited for truck only use.

A 7x12 CT dry weight is anywhere from 1400 to 1800 lbs depending on manufacturer. By time you add your conversion, gear etc, you could be easily be over 2000 - 2500 lbs + which is not a lot for the 4runner on-road, however for off-road and your intended purpose, it is a lot. Regardless of axle purchased (stay away from torsion axles for anything but light off-road), electric brakes are a must, IMO.

In regards to the 7x12 overall length, most of these size trailers are about 17-18 feet in overall length . That plus the length of the TV (tow vehicle) itself, is a lot of rig to turn/back around on just about any all weather main forest service road let alone a mountain trail.

Another issue for CT off-road use is the drop axle. The clearance, depending on the trailer is very low. You could consider an axle flip which would gain you some inches below but will increase the overall height of the CT even more. This will affect gas mileage and also cause more drag and hinder overhead clearance off-road.

As I mentioned above, I have already considered all these factors and now know the limitations of a CT for off-road use. That said, the CT we will be converting is intended to be used as a basecamp only and pulled along main forest service roads. Up here, there are lot of these roads that go for 60+ miles and if there is a need to venture more further out from there on secondary roads and trails, we know that the tent will be our sleeping quarters if we intend to spend the night(s).


Lastly, for the trailer you are looking at. You should at least inquire who the manufacturer is and ask for a spec sheet then do some dilligent research on these trailers before you decide to purchase.

[David_L6]

One of the main issues with a CT is that they are wide, tall, long and they flex easily which could lead to popped rivet/screws and the sides of the trailer exterior can show some distotion patterns.

Very true. You can brace up the inside of the trailer with thicker plywood instead of the thin stuff they come with. I'm going to use 1/2" plywood in one of my trailers while I have it apart to insulate it. I know it will add weight but I want the strength.

You should at least inquire who the manufacturer is and ask for a spec sheet then do some dilligent research on these trailers before you decide to purchase.

Definitely! One of my trailers is a Pace Outback. It will do for my intended purpose but it is a light duty trailer. I would not take it offroad. My Cargo Craft is considerable better built.

[beccae]

It is a treasure trove of info on axels and other things (I really do read everything).I know one thread from 2006 is on the ultimate off road axel. You can find the index at the top of the page next to forum rules.

[Stainless]

When planning for my CT to convert (which will be ordered soon) I had some of the same thoughts/questions as you.

Thanks, that's a ton of good info. Does your name indicate that you're in BC? I'm in Calgary, so we might be talking about similar wilderness neighborhoods.

I'm a little surprised to hear that there are potential ruggedness problems with CT conversions. I don't want to overstate the trails I'll be pulling though... brave souls do get in there with cars, but very slowly and with lots of scraping. My friends lug lifted travel trailers into these spots and they wind up pretty scarred and beat up, so I figured that a cargo would be a stronger option than some of the older wood frames that would be in the price range I can afford. I also considered using the junk tent trailer as a platform and build a shell from scratch... I guess I just assumed that wood equals weak, especially when I'm trying to build light. Maybe that's wrong. It's going to have branch scratches (they're racing stripes) and the frame will contact the ground from time to time -- I don't really care about cosmetics, as long as it stays together.

Plus, even if I wind up just over 2000 lbs, that's still lighter than pretty much anything else I could consider. I accept the fact that I'll likely flip the axle and that my gas mileage will suffer, but that's kind of the nature of pulling any trailer of any appreciable size into isolated areas. I've been thinking that brakes aren't necessary, but I'll reconsider that position.

The thicker interior panel idea is good, too. I built my plans around a 7-foot wide trailer so that I can sleep sideways and maximize space. Even with 1/2" wood, I should be OK... I'm only 5'9", so even a 6'2" or so OAW inside should be opulent comfort for camping. Despite the weight compromise, a thicker interior would also be nice for mounting things with an eye toward strength.

Anyway, I'm still on the CT idea, but it looks like I'll need to pay more attention to strengthening than I assumed. I love building things, so I'm really looking forward to this project -- especially because I get to design the interior the way I want. We 4x4 through muddy forest trails and I can't wait to have a shower instead of relying on the magic of baby wipes.

Speaking of showers, what's the smallest reasonable size I should plan for the shower stall? Again, I'm not a huge guy... I've been thinking even 30" x 30" would be enough to get the job done. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for all the input... keep it coming.

S

[wtcreaux]

Be sure to checkout the OffRoad Construction techniques from the index

[BC_Explorer]

Stainless:

Yes I am in BC, the Vancouver area to be a bit more precise. I lived in many areas of the province and also have made several trips to Alberta over the years.

Your comments on the toghness of the CT are spot on. They are much tougher then any travel trailer and when it comes to deciding when and where to pull or not pull a trailer, I guess it depends on our views of off-road trails are.

My view in summary, (and I sure there are many differing.)

1) Main Forest Service (FS) Road: Usually all weather roads regularily maintained by .gov or private companies such as forestry mining etc. These roads are suitable for just about any type of vehicle down to the family car.

2) Secondary FS Road: May or may not be regularily maintained and can be subject to winter or other weather related closures. May have some clearance issues and possible pothole, slight washouts etc. The roads can usually be driven by cars, or trucks pulling travel type trailers however some care still needs to be taken to prevent damage.

3) FS Trails: Unmaintained, usually overgrown, rock/boulder strewn, washed out sections that neccessiate 4 wheel drive or at a minimum, higher clearance SUV / trucks with decent tires. Not suitable for trailers nor cars as the occurance of expensive damage is a very high possibility. Any vehicle on these trails will have their paint sacrificed...

Taking all the above into consideration, my plans do not involve pulling a CT on past a secondary road as noted above in #2. On a related note, one of our most favorite routes involve a 6500' climb over a secondary FS road that I am still not 100% sure that pulling a CT over it is a good idea or not.

As for trailer sizing, I had looked at a 7x12' and thought that this size trailer was a bit too big considering the TV (Jeep Cherokee, 4.0L wih 5-speed manual transmission) and the expected terrain. Living in British Columbia Canada means a lot of mountainous driving which also includes some extreme winter driving. The size of the 7x12 as compared to the 6x10 sitting side by side is considerable and there is also a weight difference. The 6x10' I will be ordering is only 1100 lbs dryweight wheras a 7x12 is 1510. This is not much, however for my needs, I would like to keep total weight down to about 2000 lbs.

The reason for the trailer brakes I mentioned, there is a highway route that I travel often. This route is up/down over one of the steepest climbs in Canada for a paved highway (3400 feet in 7 miles.) The road has numerous switchbacks where the recommended posted speed is 10 miles per hour. Many cars and trucks have burned their engines/transmissions on the ascent and others have burned their brakes on the descent which has resulted in some very bad and life ending vehicle accidents. It is for these reasons why the trailer will be ordered with electric brakes. The way I look at it, $240.00 for the electric brake option is cheap life insurance...

I am also looking at a small 4x6 trailer for more demanding off-road use where a CT is not feasible and have a thread on it over on the Expedition Portal Forum. This forum is more geared to trucks/jeeps and off-road trailers but a lot of the info can still be gleaned and put to use in general.

In regards to the shower option, the larger trailer does give more room for such options. A house I once lived in had a 22x22 inch shower stall which was the size of an old phone booth. It was small but did the job so I think that 30x30" would probably work. You may want to check online for common travel trailer shower stall sizes to give you a better idea.

[Trackstriper]

Stainless,

Some things to ponder...

You didn't state how many people would typically be staying in your trailer, that might be helpful to know.

A generic seven-wide cargo trailer is 102" wide...same as a semi...and your 4Runner is about 66" wide. The track of the trailer wheels is about 92-94" vs. 59" for your TV. That's a whole heap of difference in terms of getting the thing down a narrow road or trail. Most cargo trailers keep the wheels outside the cargo box for ease of build and effective cargo space, thus the width. Perhaps you would consider sleeping length-wise in a much narrower trailer, maybe a 5x10 which might match your tow vehicle better.

A shorter, narrower trailer would most likely be proportionately stiffer and stronger. I have a 5x8 and a 6x12 cargo trailer from the same manufacturer and the frame structure is the same in terms of material sizing. The plywood interior walls are a good bit of the strength on the larger trailers.....think plywood trailer with metal studs and some .030" (or less) aluminum to keep it dry. Rather than use a heavier plywood, you could double or triple the number of screws holding the ply to the wall posts. I think that would get the same job done without adding weight or having to buy new plywood.

Also, look at ordering with a straight axle, even if you have to pay more. The dropped axles are sometimes an option...sort of a bonus item...but you will need the ground clearance. You don't want to literally "flip" an axle over, it will screw up the alignment of the wheels (camber). You could mount the axle below the springs rather than over the springs (as is pretty much standard for small cargo trailers), but you would have to weld new spring perchs to the axle. Just go with a "straight" axle, it's probably more durable too under stress conditions.

Yes on the brakes.

I, also, have a concern that you might be intending to pull too large a trailer for the conditions.

Hope this helps some.

[Stainless]

Yes I am in BC, the Vancouver area to be a bit more precise. I lived in many areas of the province and also have made several trips to Alberta over the years.

Small world. I was just out in Vancouver in July visiting a friend and I spent my summer vacation in the Sicamous area. It's a little chunk of heaven in the interior.

My view in summary, (and I sure there are many differing.)

The types of in-roads that I'm talking about would be mostly in the moderate to bad end of your category 2, with some stretches that are worse. I don't use 4-wheel drive to get in, but there are times when it's close, especially in the spring.

The size of the 7x12 as compared to the 6x10 sitting side by side is considerable and there is also a weight difference. The 6x10' I will be ordering is only 1100 lbs dryweight wheras a 7x12 is 1510. This is not much, however for my needs, I would like to keep total weight down to about 2000 lbs.

I spent considerable time debating the 6' wide option but, after a few Sketchup models, I just couldn't make it work with what I want in the trailer (bed, shower, small kitchenette). I think I can do quite well with my light-weight goal by using fiberglass, aluminum and well-planned framing instead of just throwing material at the project to make it strong. You're quite right about pulling something heavy through the mountains with a 6-cylinder, but I like a challenge.

If I may ask, who are you ordering your trailer through? I've found that US vendors are much cheaper, and it doesn't seem like an enormous PITA to get it into Canada (www.riv.ca), but if I can avoid driving some enormous distance to save a few bucks, I'd be happy to do so.

The reason for the trailer brakes I mentioned, there is a highway route that I travel often.

Yeah, I've been thinking this over, and I think you're right about brakes. I'll wind up lugging this thing into the Shushwap area, which involves the Rogers Pass and a few other solid grades, so it's the smart plan. It's worth a couple hundred bucks in trailer price even just to save enormous wear on the truck's brakes.

This route is up/down over one of the steepest climbs in Canada for a paved highway (3400 feet in 7 miles.) The road has numerous switchbacks where the recommended posted speed is 10 miles per hour.

Where is this? It sounds interesting.

A house I once lived in had a 22x22 inch shower stall which was the size of an old phone booth. It was small but did the job so I think that 30x30" would probably work.

Hmm. I've made the thing work (in Sketchup) with the planned 30x30, but maybe I can go a little smaller and use the space elsewhere. I'll snoop out some shower pans and see how much smaller is reasonable. I wouldn't mind being able to, you know, raise my arms in the shower.

Thanks again. Very helpful.

S

[d30gaijin]

Hmm. I've made the thing work (in Sketchup) with the planned 30x30, but maybe I can go a little smaller and use the space elsewhere. I'll snoop out some shower pans and see how much smaller is reasonable. I wouldn't mind being able to, you know, raise my arms in the shower.

Thanks again. Very helpful.

S

Stainless,

Welcome to the forum!

Here's a 24" x 24" fiberglass shower pan I bought from this outfit: http://tweetys.com/shower-pan-24-x24-4-flange-frnt-ctr-drn.aspx

I was going to put it in my 6x10 CT conversion but then changed my mind. Still, it's a nicely made shower pan.

Don

[Itsdoable]

A few other things to consider...

Brakes: I opted to not order them on my 6x14. Big mistake and decided to put them on after. Brakes are cheap, controllers can get pricey.

You might consider dual axles. If I had a 'weight' choice between 1/2" walls (too thick IMO) and a second axle, I'd do the axles. The trailer will handle the potholes/washboard dirt roads better with 2. Also, most 2 axle trailers have a beefier frame and higher gross.

If you can, order it with an RV door on the side. That way you'll have a screen door and another window to let in light.

Look into outdoor shower tent setups. Work great and you won't have all that humidity to deal with in the small CT space.

You'll definitely need to 'flip' the axle for more ground clearance. The axle mfg should have a kit at ~$50 per axle, and gives you about 4 1/2" increase. Heck, I couldn't even get out of the driveway without scraping until I flipped!

[Kharn]

For cargo trailers with a wedge front, is the wedge included in the length measurement, or is it only the length of the straight walls?

[BC_Explorer]

Stainless:

I am ordering my Haulmark trailer ($2700.00 base price) from a local dealer (Allparts Trailer sales | trailersales.net). I worked out the price difference between ordering from the USA however did not find much if any overall savings. With a local dealer, there is at least warranty work that is close. I would be leery about a USA purchased trailer as most warranties are not honored internationally even if it is just across the border.

Have you thought about a 6x12 V-nose? these trailers are lighter and more narrower then a 7x14 but provide a little more interior length then the traditional flat nose design.

As for the brakes, if you are traveling in BC, they are almost mandatory for the size of the trailer you want as the TV brakes will be severely taxed on any lengthy trip through the mountains.

The steep road I was referring to is known as the Duffy Lake Road. Gorgeous country and scenery on that route but the ascent down into the valley I would never do without trailer brakes especially in fall where there can be snow at anytime now.

[David_L6]

For cargo trailers with a wedge front, is the wedge included in the length measurement, or is it only the length of the straight walls?

The V (or wedge as you call it) is not included in the length at most places. One of the dealers I went to (not the one I bought from) kept trying to include the length of the V in the measurements. He kept calling my 16' a 19' and was a good bit higher on price than the place I purchased it. My 6' X 10' was advertised as a 6' X 10' plus a 2' V nose. My 7' X 16' was advertised as a 7' X 16' plus a 3' V nose everywhere except that one dealer.