LP Gas Refrigerator

[chorizon]

Aw....you guys!

I'll interrupt for justa second...It's pretty easy to install a propane appliance correctly...

...but I've seen "Dirt-Daubers" or "Mud-Daubers" or whatever you call them build a nest strategically placed so as to cover or obstruct the air-orifice (is that what it's called?) on the inlet to propane appliances.

The resulting flame was not a complete combustion, and was very weak, or yellow, or put off soot, even.

An incomplete combustion of any hydrocarbon, even propane, will produce Carbon Monoxide, a deadly gas as Gus has lined out a couple of posts ago.

Obviously, if you noticed the obstruction, you could clean it up to remedy it, but I wouldn't ever assume that a good propane appliance install is static. It could change even with dust building up in the orifice, or dirty gas.

Once again, I'm not a propane expert, but the dirt-dauber's-nest-thing is pretty common, at least around here, LOOK for it.

[eamarquardt]

Gene
I think the subject has gone askew here. It is not the plumbing of the gas piping that is the problem - it is the ventilation system needed to properly install a Refridge of this type. True They have to have (so I am told, and as I understand ) a continuous air channel from top to bottom along the back of the fridge, running from the top of the camper to underneath, to allow for new air to come in and combusted air and air used to cool the condenser to escape. Absolutely true. And.....here is the kicker, they have to back up to an outside wall!!!! Not true according to the two engineers that I have discussed this issue with at Thetford/Norcold but this is the most common way of installing them. How do I know this...I have a friend in the RV refrigeration business. He has stated that this condition CANNOT be changed. According to the two engineers at Thetford/Norcold I've discussed this issue with your friend is mistaken. Hard to mount a fridge on an outside wall in a teardrop and still access it from the hatch IMHO. Yes, but the requirement it back up to an outside wall is false if you believe the engineers at the factory that makes them.

Thetford/Norcold does offer thermostatically controlled auxillary fan(s) to be installed to improve the draft (convection flow of air) when the installation is less than optimum. I know because I've contacted them several times, talked to two of their engineers, and confirmed that my plans are acceptable to them and viable.

PPP, PPP!

Cheers,

Gus

[madjack]

I'm gonna throw a couple cents into this discussion...as Len stated, many have considered this option(myself included) and have passed in the end because the requirements are onerous for the benefits in a TD...this is not to say it is impossible...just tough....

While I have not talked to any engineers about this, I have spent considerable time doing research on both Dometic and Norcolds websites and found they do sell a side mount ventilation kit which would allow you to mount a fridge in a standard position(facing the hatch) and vent to the side...a powered ventilation system would make this even easier....

My main problem with this, is the fact, real estate is just so darn valuable in a tear and I have other items I would rather spend the space on storing...I use 2 or 3, 5 day coolers and carry them in either the tow vehicle or a rack which attaches to a 2" receiver on the back of my tear...I have had a couple of travel trailers in the past with 3way fridges and due to my experiences with them, I would just as soon go with one of the Edgestar or Engels...if I were to abandon my coolers that is...

Gus, I and I'm sure many other await with baited breath to see the solutions you come up with...you might just start a brand new craze...which is always a good thing!!!!

madjack

[eamarquardt]

Gus, I and I'm sure many other await with baited breath to see the solutions you come up with...you might just start a brand new craze...which is always a good thing!!!!

madjack

Will the "craze" be because I'm already "crazey"?

When sailing/boating out at the islands there was no replentishing of the ice supply short of returning to the mainland. It was a PITA not have cold! I want refrigeration! A propane reefer will not take up much more space than the small bar reefers many others have already installed.

Some folks seem to be doing well with the Engle chests and the like. I think you get better volumetric effeciency with a chest type cooler than a front opening box so the front opening is a compromise. The advantage of the propane is that you can go a long time without electicity. I bought the reefer a while back and believe it can be safely and effectively installed.

However, if I were starting from "ground zero" again, I would be seriously considering one of the "kits" that include a Danfoss compressor, evaporator, etc. and build a chest type compartment with insulation twice as thick as an Engle or the other electrics out there. Insulation is key to effeciency. Installing the kit isn't difficult for an handy DIYer or refrigeration tech. Heat that doesn't get out, doesn't have to be removed! I think you could do quite well with a set up like that, a good battery set up, some solar power, and charging from the TV when moving from place to place (my intended form of camping as opposed to spending extended periods in one place).

I appologize, in advance, for the slow pace of my build but I have lots of distractions. My wife would like to have a painted interior in our house and new bathroom, #2 son's installation of a Subaru engine (and computer) in his VW, #2 son's demand that we build a flatbed trailer for his motorcycle(s) and VW Baja Bug (purchased with his savings while in the USMC), and a host of other projects. In addition I regularly go down for the count for weeks/months at a time with "episodes" of the pain I experience. Unfortunately I'm "down" more than up. It, however, could be "worser"! I am, however, med free!

Stay tuned.

Cheers,

Gus

[wlivesey]

I actually have the same refrigerator sitting unused in my office. I bought it for my winter warrior build.and eventually decided to go with a norcold 12 volt fridge. When I thought about the reality of having a constant flow of propane and the combustion/carbon monoxide/possibility of killing my family in their sleep, I decided that 12 volt was the better choice for me. I just stuck a couple of deep cycle batteries on the tongue and wired up the fridge. Done. So far, I've been able.to run the fridge for 3 full days without depleting the batteries. At this point I'm not sure how long it will run. Once I get solar panels on the roof I think it just might run forever. If not, I just fire up the generator for a few hours to recharge. No worries...

Btw... if anyone wants a 3-way fridge. I've got a brand new one for sale. Just pm me.

[Rigsby]

This post seems to have turned from a "can i do it" to a "no you cant you will die, with your family and your dog in a refridgerated wooden box" post

I wouldnt have put a link to my fellow brit, Jackdaw`s build thread if it couldnt be done.

He fitted one in his first build, a couple of years ago, and if im not mistaken, when i camped with him a month ago he was still alive, and had non of the symptoms of dieing from carbon monoxide poisoning

You will probably think, why is this dum ass ranting on, well its because only a couple of you looked at his thread after i posted the link of how to do it

So here is another link to it. If you cant be bothered to read it all, go to page three and the bit with his fridge fitting is on there
http://tnttt.com/viewto ... sc&start=0

Anyway, rant over.
Have a nice day
steve

[michaelwpayton]

This post seems to have turned from a "can i do it" to a "no you cant you will die, with your family and your dog in a refridgerated wooden box" post

[wlivesey]

This post seems to have turned from a "can i do it" to a "no you cant you will die, with your family and your dog in a refridgerated wooden box" post

I wouldnt have put a link to my fellow brit, Jackdaw`s build thread if it couldnt be done.

He fitted one in his first build, a couple of years ago, and if im not mistaken, when i camped with him a month ago he was still alive, and had non of the symptoms of dieing from carbon monoxide poisoning

You will probably think, why is this dum ass ranting on, well its because only a couple of you looked at his thread after i posted the link of how to do it

So here is another link to it. If you cant be bothered to read it all, go to page three and the bit with his fridge fitting is on there
http://tnttt.com/viewto ... sc&start=0

Anyway, rant over.
Have a nice day
steve

No need to rant. I just decided to go 12 volt and I'm very happy with my decision. I will encourage others to do the same because its safe and very effective. Thanks.

[len19070]

I wouldnt have put a link to my fellow brit, Jackdaw`s build thread if it couldnt be done.

He fitted one in his first build, a couple of years ago, and if im not mistaken, when i camped with him a month ago he was still alive, and had non of the symptoms of dieing from carbon monoxide poisoning


steve

I don't think anybody has said it can't be done.

It Can. Its just that there are negatives that for some of us Makes it "Not worth doing".

With an open flame there is always the chance of Carbon Monoxide.

As MadJack has mentioned.

While I have not talked to any engineers about this, I have spent considerable time doing research on both Dometic and Norcolds websites and found they do sell a side mount ventilation kit which would allow you to mount a fridge in a standard position(facing the hatch) and vent to the side...a powered ventilation system would make this even easier....

madjack

Jackdaw has used one of these units.

You will note that his Ref. controls are in the front and there is a vent specifically designed for going out the side and not the roof for his model Ref..



In this view of Jackdaw's side vent you can clearly see the factory Dometic stamp on the upper vent.

The original Post was about a specific model Ref, a Norcold N323 and installing a gas line.


The Norcold N323 has the controls in the back and the venting to be done straight up the back. Not that it could not be converted with a lot of effort.

To make this conversion, on this particular model for me is like Lowering the river instead of raising the bridge.

And without a conversion makes operating this model very inconvenient.

Another factor to be concerned with is that the Norcold N323 has all the controls in the back of the Ref, as do many of the small 3 ways. Which means that an access panel must be made directly into the cabin to turn the unit on or off.

Besides being inconvenient (you may have to remove the mattress to gain access) these controls are directly in the area of the heat and Carbon Monoxide.

If that access panel...that is in an inconvenient place is not re secured properly you have direct access from the unit to the cabin.

Len

I have abandoned the Idea because there are to many situations that have to be dealt with, such as the excess heat, the ever present danger of carbon monoxide, straying from the standard venting procedure, the fact that it takes up to much space that I could be doing other things with, uncontrollable factors being introduced randomly (mud Daubers/dirt don't give prior notice) and the excessive cost.

These reasons and more have made installing a 3 way ref. in one of my Teardrops "Not worth doing" for me.

My 5-6 day cooler, using Ice containers, transported in the back of my Truck answers or should I say corrects all these negatives.

And just look at our history. How many people make a second or third or forth Trailer in just a few years?

If you mount a 3 way Ref. in any of these early trailers and sell them...You can kiss that ref. money good by.

If you Really Need a powered Ref. I think a portable is a wiser choice.

I have a friend who has one and has had it through his last 4 trailers. If it was a "build in" it would have been gone long ago.

I'm not trying to impress anybody...My cooler works fine.

Happy Trails

Len

[wlivesey]

I have to admit, my electric fridge did require a bit more thought/maintenance than a cooler would have. I was aware of my power usage and tried to regulate it as best I could. The simplicity of a really good cooler is a wonderful thing.

[teardrop_focus]

why is this dumb arse ranting on...

Your level of thriftiness and common sense helps, and, I fixed your spelling.



Jackdaw's install nears perfection!



Thanks, Len, for your voice of reason and for clarifying the orientation of the two different brands of LP fridge installs...

I'm not out to impress anyone; I'm just tired of water in my cheese. I too decided I'd like to go 12V... and then the wife and I rec'd a pooled-cash wedding gift... She's normally very frugal but when seeing an Engel in operation, she said, "We gotta have one of these!"... so we bought an Engel 45 fridge from SoCal Teardrops.

wivesly, what size and type battery did you go with? I've already purchased and tested my setup; I'm using a 100 AH marine AGM made by Odyssey for Sears Die Hard. Two days' constant use takes the battery not quite halfway down to 60% SoC... Three days takes it to almost a 35% SoC / almost a 70% DoD... and Odyssey has planned that their end users will take their RV batteries consistently to an 80% DoD... even then they virtually guarantee at least 400 charge cycles with that level of abuse.

Two hours' charge time every two days brings the battery from above-halfway-discharged to fully charged. I'm using a charger recommended by Odyssey; one made by Schumacher, for, coincidentally enough, Sears Die Hard. It's the Model 71225.




Pls pardon the threadjack!

[jackdaw]

I thought I'd add my two pennies worth to the thread. I totally understand folk feeling it's not worth fitting a fridge in to their teardrop. It's good that we're all aware of the dangers of burning propane gas, and the products of combustion. It's much better to be safe than sorry

I have had a fair few years experience in the domestic gas industry, and I'm a Gas Safe registered engineer (UK must have for gas fitters). As it happens, domestic caravans don't come under the same strict regulations as a household or static caravan. Anyone is allowed to do what they want in their caravan, as long as it's not hired out.


The three way fridges that I've used are very common place over here, and most caravans have had them fitted over the last 30 years. Whilst they are expensive if bought new ( Over £500) they can be bought cheaply on the second hand market (£50).

Weight
They do weigh around 44lbs so I can see that may put some off fitting one. I wander how much a cooler would weigh when its filled with ice ?

Space
The idea it takes up space is a little confusing to me, as it actually gives me a lot of storage space for food and drink.
As well as keeping stuff cold and fresh, we've fitted a stainless steel dish above the heat exchanger , that's really handy for keeping food warm, or drying tea towels and the like.

Most of the time we use an electric hookup so we don't use it on LP gas unless were somewhere without electric.

Fitting
Other than ensuring the gas pipe is suitable (we favour copper pipe over here) and sound (not leaking) the next most important thing is ensuring the flue gases are exited safely. The two fridges that I've used in the teardrops have been designed to be rear flued. I've added a 90 degree bend to the flue, and exited it out of the side of the trailer. the flue continues to rise constantly to the terminal.

I've used a smoke match to satisfy myself that all the products of combustion are being removed safely. We've used the fridge on gas many times and it works just fine.
The big vents top and bottom , ( or side and bottom ) will allow the fridge to cool. If the vents aren't big enough, or are blocked in some way, it will effect the coldness of the fridge, but not the safety of the unit. The flame that the fridge produces is a small pilot size flame, and given the recommended space behind the fridge, there is little chance of it causing any harm.



The only frustrating part of using the unit on gas is if the flame gets blown out. It's not a safety issue as it's fitted with a flame failure device, that cuts the gas of within 1 minute of the flame failing. I'm not keen on warm cider.

I should also add that the 12v mode on the fridge is designed to be used only whilst towing, as the feed is connected to the tow vehicle.

If it's done safely there are many pluses to having a 3 way fridge.

I suppose a carbon monoxide alarm fitted into the cabin, under the cabinets at the rear of the trailer would give total peace of mind. I haven't found it nessisary, as I'm happy with my set up as it is.

[wlivesey]

[size=16][i]wivesly, what size and type battery did you go with?

The label on my batteries don't seem to show ah. However, they do show that I have an RC of 195 minutes per battery. With my fridge on a low setting it lasted 4 full days. Not too bad... The fridge only draws a few amps.
.