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Re: Advanger Build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:55 pm

Wow! Looks great!

We just bought a coffee pot to use with shore power when available. Guess this answers the question about what it would take to do it on batteries!

Tom
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:27 pm

Tom&Shelly wrote:We just bought a coffee pot to use with shore power when available.


It does seem a bit excessive in hindsight but an electric coffee maker was the motivator for the system. :crazy:

Bruce
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby Capebuild » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:37 pm

JEEEEZZZ, BRUCE.....TOTALLY AMAZING!!!! I am so impressed with your electrical layout!!! It just makes me think of how much talent, inventiveness and total creative brain bandwidth is on this site!!!!

John
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:07 pm

Thanks John!
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby featherliteCT1 » Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:14 pm

Awesome electrical install! So clean and very professional looking. I can only hope to someday learn to do what you have done, including the diagram. :applause:

I noticed that you installed what looks like a Blue Seas Terminal block type fuse at the positive terminal of your battery.

I just ordered four 280Ah Lifepo4 cells and was thinking about installing a class T type fuse at the positive terminal of the 4S battery.

Currently, I have a Blue Seas Terminal block type fuse on my existing 235Ah lead acid batteries.

The consensus on the DIY Solar forum is that the T type fuses are preferred for high amp Lifepo4 batteries.

What was your reasoning for not using a class T type fuse?

FYI, I know enough to be dangerous but am diligently trying to learn!
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:12 am

I looked long and hard at the class T fuse and went with a MRBF fuse instead. I think a lot of people on the forums go with a class T only because they think its better and don't review it against specific use cases. Here' a list of the issues I reviewed for the two types:

Fault Current Rating: Fuses needs to be rated to safely interrupt the fault current available from Li-on batteries. There's not a lot of info on the interweb about Li-on fault current availability but I found a white paper on it:
Temperature, Overcharge and Short-Circuit Studies of Batteries used in Electric Vehicles.
I have 8 cells in my 400A-Hr, 2P4S battery pile and I guesstimated the fault current at around 9,600A. The MRBF is rated for 10,000A so it should work for my battery. I can speak from multiple experiences that the MRBF will safely interrupt a fault from fat fingering a wrench while working on the battery hot. I would have gone with a class T, which is rated for 200,000A if I had a bigger battery.

Fuse Curve: I managed to find a time versus current curve for the MRBF and reviewed it against the class T. I prefer the MRBF as it has some overload capability, meaning it accommodates the in-rush current from motor starts. The class T is designed to interrupt faults as fast as possible and doesn't have much overload capacity. That's not a bad thing, especially for a battery with a lot of fault current, but the MRBF fits my use case a little better. I might want to add some A/C someday.

Listings: The MRBF is listed for ignition protection, SAEJ1117 and is manufactured by a real fuse company, Bussmann. While that's not the preferable UL listing that the class T has, it's a lot better than most fuses. No way would I use Mega or ANL type fuses, they're manufactured to a price point and not to any kind of real listing, IMHO.

Size: The largest MRBF fuse available is a 300A, which limited my inverter size to 2,000VA. I would have had to use a class T if I went with a 3,000W inverter. Also, the MRBF is physically a lot smaller than the class T so I could use one class of fuse for all my high current loads in the space I have. I stacked the MRBF terminals (no more than 2) to save space.

Cost: the class T is is expensive compared to the MRBF - $60 versus $15 on Amazon. I found MRBF in bulk for $7.50 each at Del City. Knowing myself I was pretty sure I would go through two or three of them during startup and I've gone through one so far. With the MRBF I could afford to buy some spares and throw them in the van, just in case.

Summary: An MRBF fuse is a cost effective alternative to the class T for a system with 400a-hrs or less of battery capacity and a 2,000VA or smaller inverter.

This is probably more that you wanted to know but I hope this helps.
Bruce
Last edited by bdosborn on Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:08 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby featherliteCT1 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:02 pm

bdosborne,

Thanks a million for taking the time to explain your cogent reasoning for using a MRBF fuse.

After I asked you my question, I spent several more hours researching the issue, with the effect that, I am better able to understand your explanation.

PS: And I now know that MRBF stands for “Marine Rated Battery Fuse”.

You have helped me tremendously!
Last edited by featherliteCT1 on Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:47 pm

If you want to deep dive into how fuses work, here's a link to Bussmanns Fuseology Handbook. This is the de facto standard that gets handed to every junior power designer.

Bruce
Last edited by bdosborn on Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanger Build LiFePO4 Update

Postby bdosborn » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:25 pm

For all you guys building your own Lithium batteries:

While I was doing my mega capacity test at 2500W I noticed my cell voltages were way out of balance:
Image

159mV difference in voltage between the lowest and highest cell voltages at 96% battery State Of Charge (SOC) is way to much. I had read somewhere that 100mV difference at 20% SOC is fairly typical. The battery BMS was going to disconnect the battery too early when the lowest voltage cell hits the minimum recommended voltage way before the other cells. That limits the entire battery capacity to the lowest voltage cell capacity, islanding some of the battery capacity. I had carefully top balanced the cells so I wasn't sure what was going on or what to do. The BMS cell balancer wasn't doing much to balance them, the cells would be 10mV difference at 100% SOC and then immediately go wacky when I ran the inverter. I thought maybe a cell had gone bad, did I need a new one? The vendor said they matched the cell impedances when I bought them, did they really do that? Should I top balance the batteries again? Maybe the BMS voltage sensing was off? I'm running a 2P4S battery so there are two cells in parallel and four in series.
Image
On a hunch, I swapped a couple of the cells between the lowest and the highest group. Cells 7 and 8 in the photo above. I had done this before when I did the initial top balance and noticed a couple of the cells way out of balance:
Image

I ran a 25% capacity load test today at 0.25C (100A or 1,200W for an hour). It looks that this solved the problem as the cells were only 20mV apart at 69% SOC and under the 100A load:
Image

They bounced back to 4mV difference when I shut the load off and started the PV chargers. :thumbsup:
Image

I don't know if I had connected the two worst impedance cells in parallel or if the pack was just out of top balance. I'll keep my eye on the cell voltages but it looks like the cell swap did the trick. I'll do a top balance next if I have more issues as now I don't think any of the cells are bad.

Bruce
Last edited by bdosborn on Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby featherliteCT1 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:53 pm

Andy, at Off Grid Garage, had a similar problem with some EVE cells and it turned out to be a bad connection at one of the bus bars, not sure if it was at the terminal or balance lead connection. In any event, he cleaned it up and the problem was fixed.

I am in the process of building my EVE 280Ah 12v 4s battery and am not sure if copper lugs and copper bus bars contacting the aluminum terminals will be a problem due to dissimilar metals. I do not plan on routinely pulling more than 20Ah at a time but could occasionally run a coffee pot and pull 70Ah for a few minutes.

I take it you are not worried about the copper on aluminum. Sure would make my build easier.

PS: I forgot to thank you for posting the Bussman’s Fuseology Handbook. The photo below from page 12 resonates with me.
Fuseology Photo.jpg
Fuseology Photo.jpg (11.69 KiB) Viewed 751 times
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:23 pm

featherliteCT1 wrote:Andy, at Off Grid Garage, had a similar problem with some EVE cells and it turned out to be a bad connection at one of the bus bars, not sure if it was at the terminal or balance lead connection. In any event, he cleaned it up and the problem was fixed.

I've had zero problems with copper bus bars, certainly not the terminal heating problems Andy had. I don't think the bus connections were my problem but I did take them all off and tighten them down again. ;) No corrosion issues either and I'm puzzled why it should be a problem when the battery manufacturer supplies the cells with bare copper bus bars. :?

Bruce
Last edited by bdosborn on Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby lfhoward » Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:46 pm

Bruce, I’m just getting caught up on the insulation and new electrical system you’ve installed. It looks fantastic! Your van should not lack for power any time soon. Really impressed.
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:38 am

Thanks! I saw 605w (620w capacity) from the PV panels yesterday so I'm pretty happy with the system. 8)

Bruce
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby S. Heisley » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:15 pm

Bruce, you make me say 'Wow' with every post. :thumbsup:
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Re: Advanger Build

Postby bdosborn » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:54 pm

Thanks Sharon!
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