The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:36 pm

Thanks for the update, Tony! :thumbsup:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby wagondude » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:31 pm

My rigid shop vac is essentially the same as the one you modified. It used to have a foam pre filter around the paper filter. Some day I may pick up a replacement.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:24 pm

Yeah, I'm thinking that a better mod would have been to find a way to adapt a filter bag directly into the main vac; maybe thru a side port. That way there are less frictional flow losses, the bag acts like a pre-filter, and changing the bag is a lot less messy than servicing the dusty tub.

Having the second tub and extra hose to deal with is clumsy and the reward is still unseen at this point. I have a small update on the vacuum performance imbedded in my next post; in just a sec.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby tony.latham » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:32 pm

KCStudly wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking that a better mod would have been to find a way to adapt a filter bag directly into the main vac; maybe thru a side port. That way there are less frictional flow losses, the bag acts like a pre-filter, and changing the bag is a lot less messy than servicing the dusty tub.

Having the second tub and extra hose to deal with is clumsy and the reward is still unseen at this point. I have a small update on the vacuum performance imbedded in my next post; in just a sec.


I built a similar Thien top hat seperator that sits on a garbage can. The true test is kerfing foam. I get zero foam dust in the vaccum bag. I'm still surprised how well it works.

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:42 pm

Okay, let’s get caught up. I had Karl to lend a hand and take some pics as I worked on Thursday.

One of the reasons I put so much effort into the stretcher method of clamping was because it could be applied with the hatch latched shut. My thinking was that if there was any stiffening gained in the hatch by the application of the foam, it would be less likely to create fitment issues if it was applied with the hatch in the closed position. Well the first layer of foam hasn’t really shown any tendency to change the stiffness of the hatch, so I figured that was a moot point.

After the failure of the stretcher on the starter piece (hatch second layer, bottom rear), and having let the whole thing simmer on the back burner for a few days, I decided to prop the hatch open slightly so that I could clamp backer bars to the edges of the hatch to ensure that the foam is clamped properly this time. Though, I may still go back to the stretcher for the tighter curve.

As discussed above, I decided to use the PL300 again with an improved technique (water cleanup, easy application, reasonable working time, and thickened consistency are all working in its favor). Sticking with the finer notched trowel; adding the shallow ventilation kerfs; fewer and smaller beads of PL; only running beads in the vertical direction (except for at the top and bottom edges of the panel); making sure that the trowel notches run vertically in the field, and across the top and bottom (for a possible chimney effect between kerfs), and horizontally at the sides; plus the improved clamping technique, I think I have this thing licked!

Here I am applying the PL300.
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First tip the panel into the bottom along the top of the bumper.
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Then wipe a little excess squeeze out with a damp rag, so that it doesn’t get glued to the clamp backer.
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Clamp the bottom first; roll the panel up while pressing along the length; and clamp the top. The middle portion of the top edge of the panel wanted to pucker up, so wedge shims were tucked in under the backer bar. Here I am with the damp cloth and a stick wiping the excess.
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A closer look at the top edge and shims.
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Tonight I broke down the clamp setup and am pleased to report that everything seemed to have gone well. No major gaps, no major shifting and no sign of weakness in the join. This one is not coming back off!

Time to start dry fitting the next panel (!?!?! Really? If you don’t recall, you’ll see what I mean shortly). So I get the next full panel; dry fit it to figure out where I want the full depth/more frequently spaced kerfs to be, as well as the shallower vent kerfs; do the saw setup; run the kerfs; check the vacuum system; wipe the dust off of the panel; and get back to dry fitting it… when I realized that I had already started fabricating the same panel, including locating the taillights and license plate bracket, as well as adding the wire holes. All I needed to do to it was add a few more kerfs. DOH.

No big deal, I can adjust the kerfing and use the other piece at the tight radius for the next piece up.

Here is the kerfed panel w/o the extra details.
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Here’s a look under the table saw cabinet after running both pieces with the vacuum connected to the base of the cabinet.
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And here’s the tub of the dust separator.
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Seems like there was more dust still in the saw than what made it into the tub, but I guess that is to be expected with all of the chinks and gaps in the saw cabinet. I can tell you that there has been a marked reduction in very fine airborne dust with the use of the vac for active dust collection.

I decided to put the hatch wiring harness in place before sticking the next panel. I can still reverse that decision when it comes time to cut out behind the taillight bezels. I just used small pieces of packing tape here and there to “baste” the harness into the route. Wrapped the pigtails with a small piece of electrical tape to hold them together and make it easier to fish them thru the panel at fit up. This was a dry run.
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Karl happened to be visiting, so I spread the PL and he helped me get the panel in place and the clamps set up. It could have been a one man job, but was quicker and went much smoother with two, so thanks again to Karl (he really is my best friend). We started the same way by clamping the bottom first, rolling and pressing up the curve to about the midpoint of the panel, adding another bar and clamps, and working up to the top. The top backer bar is the one that is stapled into the end of the stretcher. I didn’t bother to take the stretcher apart to use it, just left the Tyvek attached and flopped it around as needed to get the job done. We decided to add another backer after seeing evidence of a little puckering at the edges.
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Here I have flipped the Tyvek down and have added a row of wedge shims to pinch the top edge down securely in the middle.
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A better look at the profile under the clamps.
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You can kind of see how the top edge is sucked up tightly, but the black sharpie line I used as a reference for where to stop applying the PL makes it look like there is still a gap.
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Shortly after taking that pic I decided that it would be a good idea to inspect the wires more closely and make sure they were all still free to wiggle around. Good thing I did. I found that the brown wire had jumped out of the route and become pinched just to the right of the left hand taillight. Fortunately the trouble was localized, the PL was still plenty soft, and the foam has enough compliance that all I had to do was gently tug on the wire a little for it to pop back into the trough. Then I made sure to check each wire at all access points to make sure that I saw corresponding movement when each wire was wiggled.

And that was where I got to tonight. Tomorrow I’m going to help Karl ship his motorcycles down from the loft, so I spent a little bit of time clearing my stuff out of the way so that we can roll the camper off of the shipping hatch to use the hoist. Maybe I’ll have a chance to practice my video technique. Between that and the fact that tomorrow is Yvette’s and my wedding anniversary, I don’t expect to get much, if anything, done on the camper; but Sunday is another day.
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My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Sheddie » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:40 am

Best wishes to both Yvette’s and you on your wedding anniversary. :shake hands: :wine: :wine party:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:50 am

Why thank you very kindly, good sir. :thumbsup: :D
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Fred Trout » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:16 am

Making progress !

So, you did not fix the wiring in place or fill the routed wiring channels in the under-layer ?

Was thinking of temp securing the wiring with super-glue and then filling the channels with Great Stuff, trimming the excess GS and sanding all smooth before fairing with vinyl spackle. No choice in my case since the routed channels are all exposed on the foam surface layer. Was pretty pleased at how the GS sanded down after the big mess I made with it.

What are you using for fairing the foam ?
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:39 am

I like to at least try to keep the wire runs more like they are routed in EMT or conduit, meaning that I try to maintain the ability to fish the wires in or out for serviceability.

I don't like the idea of gluing anything to the wires for fear that there might be a bad reaction with the insulation chemically. (Sheddie posted up a concern about compatibility between vinyl wire insulation and foam, but my assessment of that was that it had to do more with strain on the wires and was relatively rare over long terms of time.) I would be leery about using CA glue on wire insulation. Maybe hot glue would be okay or they do make a "liquid electrical tape" (similar to potting compound) that might have some adhesive qualities. Come to think of it, I have a small bottle of this that is just the thing I need to repot the backs of my clearance lights,

I have decided to add the high side clearance lights, so will have to route into the outside surfaces of my walls. My plan is to use a straight edge for a guide so that I can glue strips into the grooves over the wires. I think if I tug on the wires a little to make sure that they are not being pinched or stuck by any excess adhesive, then there is a reasonable chance that I can service those wires, too, if the need should arise.

For filling I have used both GG and GS with mixed results. The GS especially seems to like to crust over, but if not contained while expanding forms large bubbly voids under the skin, so after sanding the crust off you are frequently left with more voids to fill. For small surface imperfections, dings dents scratches, I have been using light weight ceiling spackle (I believe it is vinyl based). I want to caution anyone who copies this to do their own diligence. I have no long term results on its use; it will probably dissolve in water so make sure you seal your shell well; and I have some minor concerns that the foam may still "heal itself" once it gets out into direct sunlight and gets some heat into it, so I may end up with a bunch of swollen bumps later (let's hope not, there is no sign of that happening on the sunny side of the loft, but I assume that the windows cut down on the solar some).
Last edited by KCStudly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

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Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:27 am

Have we tried mixing the lightweight vinyl spackle with T2 ??? :thinking: I know , it’s a crazy idea , but they mix acrylic with cement now (concrete) huh ? ... :NC Water based , it should be compatible ... maybe? ( another test is indicated )
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:38 pm

They've posted some pictures of the mud slide up on the 'Discover The Bitterroot' site: https://www.facebook.com/DiscoverTheBitterroot

Looks a little soft but I don't think it would stop the Jeep with TPCE tow.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Sheddie » Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Piece of cake mate. :twisted: Looks like a nice place to camp. :applause:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Fred Trout » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:47 pm

KCStudly wrote:They've posted some pictures of the mud slide up on the 'Discover The Bitterroot' site: https://www.facebook.com/DiscoverTheBitterroot

Looks a little soft but I don't think it would stop the Jeep with TPCE tow.


Looks like the normal roads I take the family sedan on around here, seriously. A light vehicle like an import should go right over it unless it's raining & soft; I used to take a diesel VW Rabbit through worse spots than that all the time. Of course, did not care about the scrapes and bangs on the unibody & one time I broke off the front underspoiler on a rock in the W. Br. Madison headwaters but that just buffed out :D

Thanks for the info and ideas - totally forgot my $3.98 Walmart hot glue gun - should be perfect :thumbsup: The guy I bought the trailer from put a self-tapping screw right through the right-turn-brake-light-wiring. Was wondering why it didn't work too well; he used duct-tape to keep his wiring in place :roll: I figure if the wiring stops working someplace I will just surface mount some wiring loom to the inside wall if I can't fix the original; it's all 16ga12v stuff direct from an auto-battery power source so no real cautionary. I only have 4 wiring runs foam embedded total for LED lighting and Fantastic fan. Trailer LED lighting is all wire-loomed to the trailer itself & powered from the tow vehicle. Been considering a stick-on all in one signal to place high on the TD when on the road and left the current wires with excess to do that but I rarely travel at night, so low priority.

EDIT: Tried the filling with a slice of foam technique and it works slick. Much easier to deal with and less work than messing with GS. Thanks !
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:32 am

Tony, somehow I missed your Thein separator post, above. Nice piece. Is it shown upside down? In other words, does the inlet port feed dust above or below the Thein baffle? I am assuming above based on the fact that the void for the vacuum filter must be on the other side in your pic.

As planned, on Saturday Karl and I rolled the camper off of the hatch and hoisted two of his motorcycles down, but before that I pulled the clamp set up off and inspected the results of Friday’s work.
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The top edge was nice and tight.
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In this close-up you can see a little PL3 squeeze out and a little crushing damage from the wedge shims.
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Here’s how the wires look in the street side taillight rough opening.
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I did take some video of moving the camper, lifting the floor and hoisting the bikes, and learned a few things about taking videos. First was don’t forget to put the 256G card in the camera because the 256M card fills up in a few minutes and shuts the camera off w/o saving the footage. Second, don’t have the radio playing in the background; it will only muffle any sound that the camera does manage to pick up, and sounds like stink itself. Third, unless you have video editing software and know how to use it, you will end up with dead time and won’t be able to cut out stupid stuff. Still haven’t taken the time to establish a YouTube account or figure out how to post vids, but I don’t expect that will be too much trouble when I finally get around to it.

Once we had the floor back in and the camper back into position, I beat feet to get cleaned up and spend time with the wife. We went for a nice walk on the Niantic boardwalk on scenic Niantic Bay (I might post a “trip report” with some pics… maybe not), and had a very nice dinner out at Red36 in Mystic. We hadn’t been there before and thoroughly enjoyed it. We shared the fish taco app, Yvette had the house salad and Blackened swordfish special, while I had the sirloin with bleu cheese crumble and pecans on top and a bourbon sauce. They make their own desserts in house, including the ice cream. Yvette had strawberry shortcake on a real shortcake biscuit, and I had the strawberry rhubarb parfait. Really good service, too.

Anyway, today (Sunday) I added a bunch more kerfs to that oops piece, did some dry fitting and figured out where the holes for the clearance lights needed to be.
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Based on what I learned from the previous panel, I decided to use strips of packing tape to hold the wires in the troughs more securely, and lashed the ends of the leads together with a elec tape to make them easier to poke thru the holes in the foam.
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I figured that I would do a dry run with the backer boards and clamps to see how that looked before deciding whether to go back to the stretcher for this “over the hump” panel. It’s a tough call. The boards don’t hold the panel snuggly everywhere but they do a good job on the edges and have a visibility advantage.
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You can see that I pulled the wires up thru as the panel was being laid down.
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I decided to think on the clamp method some more and changed focus to figuring out how to router out for the license plate holder. Seem to have forgotten to take pics of the template progress.

That brought me to the conclusion that I would have been better off having done some more work cutting out before sticking that panel on, to have less risk of cutting the wires, so I decided to cut small pockets for the wires under the clearance light pods now. I used a hole saw run in reverse to make two cuts, making a good size slot for each. Still just dry fit for now.
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My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Fred Trout » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:58 am

Seems like two foam layers added a goodly amount of technically more difficult & time consuming work. I wonder how well steaming 2" styro would work out ? Have been pretty impressed by the foam-bending in that slipstream design: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62852&start=15
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