First timer build and questions

[GPW]

Quote : “ I saw the penguina crash photos “ ... Oh Great , and now it’s a CRASH !!! Funny how things get blown all out of proportions with no supporting FACTS ... Actually , the trailer was built too tall for being waaay too narrow, and got blown over by one of those strong desert crosswinds ... ( Note: NOT a Crash !!! More a simple Mistake that anybody new could have made ! ) The damage besides the bending of the trailer tongue around the coupler , was a very small scuffed area on the front floor/wall join drivers side, which could have done with just a paint touch up ( non structural damage ) ... Which led to two of the rules we have around here ( and there are very few)
1. Don’t build your trailer taller than it is wide...
2. Don’t tow your trailer in BAD Weather!!! ( Obvious that one eh ! )

We assume had the trailer been made of wood , it would have been in pieces... That would have been a “Crash” ... Anybody who’s watched Top Gear will know how fast a wooden trailers can come apert .... a few really good bumps , the doors swing open , and then it all flies apart ... Foamies are more flexible and if built properly should suffer less road vibration damage because of that Flexibility and the lower weight , lower acceleration of the mass of the cabin parts ..

For a first timer , keep the weight low , and make the structures STRONGER as it nears the floor and lighter for the top ... Keeping the Center of Gravity Low and better able to handle moderate winds ... Like the guys said , make your cabinets/ etc. also perform as internal Bracing for the entire structure... and we don’t see why Foam (skinned) wouldn’t make excellent LIGHT and strong cabinets , with maybe some slim hardwood runners built in for drawer slides, and attachments ... You could get fancy with formica countertops and Decorative wood trim around that .... Make it Light and strong , yet still make it Nice looking ... “Better Homes and Trailers” ... We really need to explore fine ( Foam) cabinet making for Foamies , Not only providing Grace and style , but also using design elements to act as a structural element too ... Chance for the Designers, Decorators, and Engineers to get together on this project ...

[Tomterrific]

Strength is something not easily understood. Most would say a 3/4" wall is stronger than a 1/4" wall. Makes sense until one sees that failure will be at the joint. I've seen beautiful work where a 3/4" side is rabbited for the roof ply. That's a 1/2" joint but a 1/4" wall can have a kerfing like an acoustic guitar which gives much more glue joint and 3/4" board battens giving the stiffness of a one inch wall. Much lighter, possibly stronger.

T

[GPW]

T, that's a really Great Point !!!! Like on aircraft, it doesn't have to be heavy to be Strong !!!

[dancam]

I am not sure how to do the multi quote thing on the forum here, so I will just copy the last posts into one reply here.

The theories all still apply. If you build your lower section to cabinet/counter top height, instead of just placing storage units, you can integrate them into the side walls. The walls become the beams and the cabinets become the gussets. Still build them light, but they will be strong if you integrate them into the structure.

Changing the water filter, that's something I need to do, too.

Alright, the bottom walls will be just under 3ft 6in tall and what I was planning was to have was storage dividers 2 ft high. That would allow lots of storage and we can then put bed slats across it for the air mattress. Add the hight of the air mattress and mattress topper and we have just enough clearance so we do not hit our heads on the roof when we sit on the bed. Kitchen counters are about 3ft high and while it would be nice to have I cannot picture how we would sleep in that. I am thinking of gluing some of these storage dividers in place to the floor and wall. That would give more support but It takes away from the versatility because we cannot move them later. That would have to be done last thing once we have everything were going to put in it ready. Or I could just use lots of angle brackets. Maybe just glue the center walkway pieces down... I will have to figure that out later.

- Think of it more like building a really light cabinet then a house with studs and framing! LOL
You are thinking right that aerodynamics is a key thing in towing. wind drag is a big issue.
Rounded front and tapered to the back, that way the wind you displace actually pushes you forward as it goes over the taper to the back. (I Love physics )
AS stated before the whole unit is much stronger then the parts. Rounded roof with the teardrop shape makes it strong.
There is a thread where A guy used bent up metal flashing instead of wood to attach his door and window and such. It worked well and was much lighter then wood.
Driving 90km or 55mph is easier on things too.
Man I am excited for you a 3 month trip through canada and Alaska would be great.

Alright.
It sure is! I will do the best I can with the front, see the pictures below and tell me what you think. As much as I really would like to taper the back I am not sure how I would work that in with my current design. I think if I had a bigger tow vehicle and could make a stand up camper I would do that, but I think I am pretty tight for space on this.
Yikes The door is one thing I haven't figured out yet.
It will, I am used to driving 70mph everywhere (I commute on a freeway where thats the speed limit) and getting 50+mpg while doing it, but when I towed the u-haul it wasn't hard to keep it at 55-65mph, lol.
My wife and I are quite excited too! I have wanted to do this for 9 years and its finally going to happen!

Quote : “ I saw the penguina crash photos “ ... Oh Great , and now it’s a CRASH !!! Funny how things get blown all out of proportions with no supporting FACTS ... Actually , the trailer was built too tall for being waaay too narrow, and got blown over by one of those strong desert crosswinds ... ( Note: NOT a Crash !!! More a simple Mistake that anybody new could have made ! ) The damage besides the bending of the trailer tongue around the coupler , was a very small scuffed area on the front floor/wall join drivers side, which could have done with just a paint touch up ( non structural damage ) ... Which led to two of the rules we have around here ( and there are very few)
1. Don’t build your trailer taller than it is wide...
2. Don’t tow your trailer in BAD Weather!!! ( Obvious that one eh ! )

We assume had the trailer been made of wood , it would have been in pieces... That would have been a “Crash” ... Anybody who’s watched Top Gear will know how fast a wooden trailers can come apert .... a few really good bumps , the doors swing open , and then it all flies apart ... Foamies are more flexible and if built properly should suffer less road vibration damage because of that Flexibility and the lower weight , lower acceleration of the mass of the cabin parts ..

For a first timer , keep the weight low , and make the structures STRONGER as it nears the floor and lighter for the top ... Keeping the Center of Gravity Low and better able to handle moderate winds ... Like the guys said , make your cabinets/ etc. also perform as internal Bracing for the entire structure... and we don’t see why Foam (skinned) wouldn’t make excellent LIGHT and strong cabinets , with maybe some slim hardwood runners built in for drawer slides, and attachments ... You could get fancy with formica countertops and Decorative wood trim around that .... Make it Light and strong , yet still make it Nice looking ... “Better Homes and Trailers” ... We really need to explore fine ( Foam) cabinet making for Foamies , Not only providing Grace and style , but also using design elements to act as a structural element too ... Chance for the Designers, Decorators, and Engineers to get together on this project ...

I read the thread. It tipped over while going 50mph in a high wind. If that happened to my car I would say it crashed. Sorry if my offhand choice of words offended you, but my whole point in mentioning that was to say I realize how strong this stuff is, I am impressed by how well it held up.
I have no Idea how heavy mine will end up, but all my cargo will be 2ft above the deck and lower, should be very stable. My extended hight will be 7ft10in off the ground ( A 6ft 7in wall ) on a 5ft wide base. I am hoping that a jack on all 4 corners will keep that stable while camping. If its windy I will have to find some trees.

- Strength is something not easily understood. Most would say a 3/4" wall is stronger than a 1/4" wall. Makes sense until one sees that failure will be at the joint. I've seen beautiful work where a 3/4" side is rabbited for the roof ply. That's a 1/2" joint but a 1/4" wall can have a kerfing like an acoustic guitar which gives much more glue joint and 3/4" board battens giving the stiffness of a one inch wall. Much lighter, possibly stronger.

Alright, I will make sure to put a bunch of thought into how I do my joints.

So I read a bunch of threads and made some rough drawings today. I think I got the dimensions figured out as well as the front storage area. Making this with foam reduces the inside area a fair bit but I think it will be worth it. I will attach photos of my drawings below.
I still want to have something like a canvass between the car and trailer, haven't figured that out yet.
I spent a lot of time thinking about how to seal the gap between the upper and lower half but settled on attaching velcro or a zipper to both sides of a long strip of screen. Fasten one side to the lower part of the trailer and the other side to the upper part on the wall and it keeps the bugs out but lets a breeze through. 3/8 gap between the upper and lower half all the way around. 1 inch overlap of the top and bottom halves when erected so no water should get in. Then to lower it you take the screen off the top half, lower the top half, then re-attach the screen to the roof to keep bugs out while its down. I will have 8 strips of plastic that are 1/4in for the top to rub on while its being raised and to help align it. To take up the 1/8 gap left I will use shims once its up. I will use 4 or 6 supports while its raised, not sure yet. Then from the outside I will have hooks on the 4 corners of the top half and on the trailer base and use ratchet straps to hold it down snug.
When its down to travel I plan to have probably 4 latching points on each side to secure the top half to the steel trailer base. The top of the lower half will be about 3/4in from the roof when its closed.

The tarp on the back is so we have a dry place while its raining to do stuff and to cook. It will roll up into the aero back panel which will extend out from the top half. Not sure what length yet though.
Still need to figure out the door. Need to be able to get in while everything is down of course. Aero top will shield from water and rain, so less worries about it leaking. Want to have a screen over the door too so we can have the doors open at night and just a screen in front for when the kids are in a tent outside instead of the trailer. Anyone on here done a door I could get ideas from? I presume I have to build my own as I doubt you can buy an 18x40 door, lol.
Need to source a 12v fan probably too to blow hot air out.
With the side skirts do you end them right at the front of the trailer or extend them up the tongue too?
Now that I have that stuff kind of figured I have to figure out:
-how I will frame it and do joints.
-what to do for the floor
-How to do the rear door
-try to find cable on spring loaded rollers. Kind of like a come-along or hand winch except with a spring loaded drum instead of a ratcheting mechanism. Anyone heard of such a thing?





My trailer dimensions. It has a fair amount of cross members widthwise. I think 1/2in plywood canvassed on both sides would work. make a few foam trusses lengthways and it should be strong enough right?

Side closed. Car is not to scale really, but the hight is right.

Screen Idea

Top view

Side open

[GPW]

Dan , we’re currently working on the idea of cabinet/structures for foamies ... But be aware that none of that is really needed as the simple foam structures are plenty strong enough ...
This has all been proven for many years now ...

A standy isn’t that big a deal , because you don’t stand up most of the time ... however a Comfortable sleeping area is most important , and enough room to comfortably change clothes.

Dan , don’t worry about offending me , I’ve been here for years now and have learned not to be easily offended ... Around here you’ll hear many different conflicting opinions!!! It’s best for you to choose what makes the most Sense for your needs and try it out for yourself...

[fotooutdoors]

I have considered much of what you are talking about for a theoretical trip of similar style. No experience, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I'm not sure you will see any fuel efficiency gains by angling the front in the horizontal. In fact, it will make keeping your roof airflow attached more difficult. As to a method, my thought is a strap on rack very similar to a strap on bike rack, using webbing as the connecting device. It would have fabric on the upper surface. At the end of the rack, a second segment would be free to pivot vertically and float on the nose of the trailer. Hopefully the below drawing makes sense of what i just wrote


Typed on my phone. Pardon the autocorrect.

[dancam]

I have considered much of what you are talking about for a theoretical trip of similar style. No experience, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I'm not sure you will see any fuel efficiency gains by angling the front in the horizontal. In fact, it will make keeping your roof airflow attached more difficult. As to a method, my thought is a strap on rack very similar to a strap on bike rack, using webbing as the connecting device. It would have fabric on the upper surface. At the end of the rack, a second segment would be free to pivot vertically and float on the nose of the trailer. Hopefully the below drawing makes sense of what i just wrote


Typed on my phone. Pardon the autocorrect.

The reason I angled the front like that was only for if my car-trailer gap blocker broke or failed on the trip. If I come up with something I am confident in then i could probably make a trailer front more like your design. I have thought about what you described and drew for a bit now but I am not sure I understand. You would have it solid and stationary from the roof of the car back to the support in the middle. Then it is hinged at the support so the section between the support and trailer can move up and down. That makes sense and works in my head but if you took a sharper corner like at an intersection or into a parking lot wouldn't the piece that rests on the trailer come right off the side of the trailer and fall down? Thats the part that I don't get about what you drew, so how does that work?
Thanks

I haven't had much time this week to focus on the trailer, super busy with other things which sucks. Anyway, quick math tells me that the foam trailer the way I am currently thinking of it will be 300 pounds lighter than my plywood design (70% of its weight) but cost minimum $400 more. Thats just quick math though. Can anyone tell me roughly how far a gallon of titebond goes if you do not dilute it? I couldn't find anything on that by searching. Also how many coats of paint are normal? I gathered its 1 diluted coat of primer, 1 full strength primer, then 2 coats of colour. But it looks like some people are doing like 6 coats and some put it on so heavy its running off... So Im thinking that 5 gallons will not be enough for my trailer? Also if I sprayed automotive 2k high build primer on the canvas after it is glued on would that do anything to the titebond? Then I could sand it smooth, but I would have to use automotive paint for the color as house paint will not roll on to a smooth surface... hmm. Would it be too rigid and crack as the trailer flexes a bit? house paint is very flexable..
I need to find foam for cheaper than $23 for a 2x8 sheet... Seems not many places have extruded foam here.

[GPW]

“ Can anyone tell me roughly how far a gallon of titebond goes if you do not dilute it? “ Not as far as you’d think ,not as much as you’d hope . Undiluted it’s thick and harder to spread ... (it’s glue) Diluted it’s easier to “Paint" ... Think roughly 200sq. ft. depending on application ...

[lthomas987]

I would agree with GPW about the TB2 on my trailer including the interior framing bits I used just over 3 gallons to do the whole thing. I had linen instead of canvas, and I didn't bother to try and saturate/fill the weave with glue as it didn't seem any tougher or more bonded in my small sample tests. One important thing to remember from the titebond site is this though

Can Titebond Wood Glues be thinned?

Most of our water-based wood glues can be thinned with water up to 5% by weight or by volume. Adding more than 5% water to our glues will decrease the bond strength.

http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx

That's 6.4oz per gallon, or you know just a bit over 3/4 of a cup.

I thinned mine in smaller batches in a solo cup using a squirt bottle of water that I also used to keep my hands wet for smoothing fabric.

[GPW]

Consider this , the GLUE (even highly diluted ) will be stronger than the foam .... And in high dilutions , it acts for other purposes (sizing) ...

TB2 used normally for wood , is Stronger than the wood is ( the wood fails first ) ... It’s quite a strong glue when properly used ... With Foamies , substrate failure occurs waaaay long before the glue fails ... But that’s OK ...

[loaderman]

glue is extremely strong done right.
many many moons ago I was in Tae-Kwan-Do, we broke boards that were glued together to be wider, the glue joint never broke, always the wood.

I too am looking at building light but strong. the foamie construction with built in bulkheads/cabinets/etc. does that.

[fotooutdoors]

That makes sense and works in my head but if you took a sharper corner like at an intersection or into a parking lot wouldn't the piece that rests on the trailer come right off the side of the trailer and fall down? Thats the part that I don't get about what you drew, so how does that work?

That will depend on your car's minimum turning radius, the distance from the rear wheels to the hitch, and the distance between the hitch and the trailer wheels. I would need to puzzle over that a bit more to work the calculations, but my intuition is, unless you have a really tight turning radius and long distance between your hitch point and trailer wheels that you should be fine going forward; backing obviously would be a different story. You could even have a horizontal bar mounted up top on the trailer V if you could take a corner that would drop the rear section of the flap.

The other option is to round your nose somewhat (though not to the degree you diagrammed, since that makes reattachment of airflow less likely since you have a longer distance between your car and trailer) and have just the first (fixed) portion of the deflector, then do some tracer testing at speed to nail down its optimal height if it isn't perfectly level between your car and trailer (or if your car doesn't have a perfectly level roof).

[loaderman]

There are 2 piece trailer tongues designed for being close to the vehichle going forward, then when you want to reverse you have to lengthen it.
I believe I saw this on a boat forum.
Having the trailer as close as possible does help with aerodynamics. As does rounding the front. The guys over at http://www.ecomodder.com can point you in the right direction.

Take your existing car and trailer, crank the wheels going forward and measure where it would hit your trailer you are building, give it a couple of extra inches and mock it up in scrap wood, the width of the proposed trailer and the distance back you think will work. Do a few slow and easy test turns to both sides, with someone watching.

Backing is easy to calculate. How tight do you want to jack-knife the trailer? Close to 90 degrees? Then your tongue needs to be at least 1/2 the width of your car,plus a couple of inches.

[dancam]

Quick question: searching this forum I have found a few people who have done it but they didn't say much about what they did. What are the advantages/disadvantages to using eps instead of xps? (expanded instead of extruded polystrene). The only extruded stuff I have found is $23 for a 2x8ft sheet, which is a bad size and expensive. I can get expanded foam for about $20 for a 4x8 sheet of 1.5inch and it is denser than normal. 40psi compressive strength, weight of about 37kg/m2. I believe normal is 20psi and 30kg/m2? I can also get 60psi expanded foam but dont know the cost. What are the issues if any? Is one not as strong as the other? I know closed cell eps absorbs water and is not airtight like xps but does that matter since were covering it with glue and paint? Does the glue stick as well?

“ Can anyone tell me roughly how far a gallon of titebond goes if you do not dilute it? “ Not as far as you’d think ,not as much as you’d hope . Undiluted it’s thick and harder to spread ... (it’s glue) Diluted it’s easier to “Paint" ... Think roughly 200sq. ft. depending on application ...

Thanks, looks like ill plan for 3 gallons, plus floor maybe 4 titebond 2 is proving almost impossible to find here. I have been to Lowes, Home depot, home hardware, co-op, canadian tire, Rona, timbertown and windsor plywood. Nobody carries it. Windsor plywood can order it for $40/gallon but I have to come in and prepay (bit of a drive) then its 2 days before they have it. Which is fine except if I run out and have just a little but not done i have to wait 2 days... They sell titebond 3 for $50/gallon though...

With the turning radius i will have to wait untill my lawn dries up and I can get my car out there to test it. trailer and car are 5ft wide and car to trailer is a bit over 4ft. So it wouldn't take much over 45 degrees to do it. But it depends on how the front piece goes, ill have to actually hook the car up to check.

[dancam]

There are 2 piece trailer tongues designed for being close to the vehichle going forward, then when you want to reverse you have to lengthen it.
I believe I saw this on a boat forum.
Having the trailer as close as possible does help with aerodynamics. As does rounding the front. The guys over at http://www.ecomodder.com can point you in the right direction.

Take your existing car and trailer, crank the wheels going forward and measure where it would hit your trailer you are building, give it a couple of extra inches and mock it up in scrap wood, the width of the proposed trailer and the distance back you think will work. Do a few slow and easy test turns to both sides, with someone watching.

Backing is easy to calculate. How tight do you want to jack-knife the trailer? Close to 90 degrees? Then your tongue needs to be at least 1/2 the width of your car,plus a couple of inches.

Interesting with the tongue design. I think i still want storage on mine. I have been looking through the ecomodder forum a bit, thanks
I just need to be able to get into parking lots and stuff, for any fancy backing up i can just disconnect and wheel it around. I will hook up the car and see what i need for room though, thanks.