The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:10 pm

I have been watching NMMarauder's canned Ham Foamie build intently as he goes thru the canvas process. I got into a discussion about sizing canvas with GPW over there (shortly after this post) and would like to continue that here, so as not to clutter up NMM's build thread.

My dilemma is wanting to do a long lasting job at canvasing, hopefully one that looks nice and "crisp", without making more work than necessary. To pre-wash the canvas or not? Sizing with thin glue before gluing the canvas down or before? Sizing at all or just go straight to primer and paint?

So from GPW's comments it sounds like a good idea to wash the canvas first to remove starch, resulting in better grab by the sizing and/or glue. That is either going to take a very large industrial washer or some sort of contraption to hose it down outside without dragging it in the dirt or letting it wrinkle. I think I bought 13 yds of 72 wide 8 oz. IIRC. Do I need to worry about the raw cut ends raveling or is it okay to rough cut the 4 main pieces before washing (2 walls, front/roof and hatch)?

Geep, I in no way was intending to suggest that you had done anything wrong with that little issue you had on the front of the Foamstream. Hope we didn't touch a nerve there.

And NMM, you are doing a swell job. Thanks for "cutting a wide swath" for this slow poke to follow in. :lol:

I was hoping to avoid pre-washing, but it sounds like a good idea now that I understand the reasoning. I think I will cover my taillight blisters in bed sheet material; that will be a good project to test the effects of sizing before applying the fabric. Maybe do one before and one after? Not the same weave or weight as the canvas, but still a good place to experiment. The tongue box is another good guinea pig. :D

Off to build.

<edited to correct reference to NMMarauder's efforts... what a faux pas on my part>
Last edited by KCStudly on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KC's Mom » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:10 pm

You can avoid raveling when pre-washing by sewing a line of stitching across the raw ends. The stitching should be a little back from the edge, but not much. It doesn't need to be real tiny stitches either.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:26 pm

Thanks mom! :thumbsup:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby tony.latham » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:38 pm

KCStudly wrote:Thanks mom! :thumbsup:


Seriously? Your mom is watching your build thread? (But who isn't?) :thumbsup:

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby dales133 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:59 pm

Looking good mate was looking forward to you attacking the roof.with those radiused corners it will for sure be one of the standout features.
It's things like this that need lots of advanced thinking/planning but make all the difference.im just pre skinning stage and trying to hurry it along without rushing it if you get my drift...witch I know you do, makes a world of difference
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:12 pm

tony.latham wrote:Seriously? Your mom is watching your build thread?

Yup! 8) :yes:

Hey Tony, Wolffarmer, and any others watching from the northwest, have you guys ever been to Palouse Falls? Some body mentioned it in a recent travel thread (I think) and I looked it up. Looks like a nice place to see!

dales133 wrote:Looking good mate was looking forward to you attacking the roof.with those radiused corners it will for sure be one of the standout features.
It's things like this that need lots of advanced thinking/planning but make all the difference.im just pre skinning stage and trying to hurry it along without rushing it if you get my drift...witch I know you do, makes a world of difference

Oh I get your drift for sure. Sometimes you have to slow down to let the clarity of mind happen. :thumbsup:

I did a little tonight before having a visit with Karl. I'll put it in a bigger progress post sometime this weekend.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Wolffarmer » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:24 pm

It seems I was to Paluose falls years ago but might be my mind playing ticks on me. I did spend a few years less than 2 hours from it. March of 2013 when I went out to Columbia Basin I was going to go see it but the road was just a bit on the wet and gooey side so I turned about. It is in the scrub lands of the old floods.

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby dales133 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:42 pm

KCStudly wrote:
tony.latham wrote:Seriously? Your mom is watching your build thread?

Yup! 8) :yes:

Hey Tony, Wolffarmer, and any others watching from the northwest, have you guys ever been to Palouse Falls? Some body mentioned it in a recent travel thread (I think) and I looked it up. Looks like a nice place to see!

dales133 wrote:Looking good mate was looking forward to you attacking the roof.with those radiused corners it will for sure be one of the standout features.
It's things like this that need lots of advanced thinking/planning but make all the difference.im just pre skinning stage and trying to hurry it along without rushing it if you get my drift...witch I know you do, makes a world of difference

Oh I get your drift for sure. Sometimes you have to slow down to let the clarity of mind happen.

I did a little tonight before having a visit with Karl. I'll put it in a bigger progress post sometime this weekend.

I've just come inside after going to start about a dozen differnt things but I either needed something to proceed or hadn't given said task enough thought so it's couch time for a bit of brain storming and sponge Bob. ..;)
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby tony.latham » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:32 pm

Palouse Falls? Yeah, I think I was there about '74! Been a while.

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:45 am

KC , throwing the canvas over the clothesline (solar clothes dryer) and playing the hose on it will serve to wash out the factory sizing ... letting it dry on the line will help prevent wrinkling ... And that way you won’t have to worry about unravelling of the ends... ;)
As a side benefit it will do it’s shrinking there too ... :beer:


"Geep, I in no way was intending to suggest that you had done anything wrong with that little issue you had on the front of the Foamstream. “

No worries ... **** happens !!! :roll: Easy to fix ...
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:06 pm

It was a beautiful spring day today. The croci are up and wide open, the peep toads are peeping, the sun was shining and the thermometer was in the 60’s F. I even opened up the windows in the loft to let things air out a bit.

About 6 hrs in today.

Last night I started in cutting the recesses for the taillight flange screw blocking. I used the combo square to locate the flange relative to the mortise and traced around the blocks to mark the pocket cuts.
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I got one of the pockets cut when Karl showed up and brought me up to date on the pizza oven trailer. "Consulting" on both projects ensued and router operations ceased. I drew this side profile sketch of the taillight blisters to help explain to him what I was doing.
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From the left: the chrome flange on the light will fit flat to the wooden flange (covered in fabric) so will be raised slightly by its own thickness; the thin wooden ply flange is recessed in the foam, as are the screw blocks top and bottom; the foam will be beveled all around, slightly offset from the flange, but matching the outline; the front of the foam will be scalloped out to match the curve of the hatch; and the area inside of the flange will be cut out for the light to recess into.

With the right angle wiring pigtail the light is about 1-3/4 inches deep. The combined thickness of the screw blocking and flange is about 1 inch, so this will work out good. The wires will be routed into the first layer of foam on the hatch, capped by the second layer. The second layer of hatch foam will be pocketed out matching the light hole through the blister.

Here is the first pocket for the screw blocking.
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This morning I decided that it made more sense to glue the upper foam on the front radius, still the first layer, because to do the street side I will need to change the ‘handing’ of the stretcher rig by moving the bottom bar clamp offset to the opposite side. Ripped the piece on the table saw and added six kerfs on the lower edge to get past the tight part of the radius. Like I mentioned previously, the lower piece went in a little crooked, so in this test fit you can see a little buckle at the center. Also, the leading edge of the upper piece is a little thicker than the lower.
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After sanding the edge to improve the fit (…actually, I sanded the wrong end of the edge first making a gap, before sanding the tight end and getting it to fit, but I can fill that with spray foam later…), I marked the start and end of the wireway for cutting with the router in the flat before installation (still just dry fit here).
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Before switching the router over to the 1/2 inch cutter for the wire way, I wanted to finish up the recesses in the taillight blisters for the screw blocking.
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And here is a dry fit.
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This was when the battery in the camera died. Fortunately I carry the charger with me, so put it on, but missed a few pics along the way in getting the roof foam on.

I used GG and gravity clamps to glue the light flanges into the foam; looks about the same…
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… Except in the above pic you can see that I have squared up and split the two parts on the table saw; and added some layout lines.

With the camera battery back up and running I took a snap of the upper foam piece under the clamp. To compensate for the first spar I wedged a length of 1 inch foam and shim in next to it to bridge the gap. Also, right where the skin passes over the front cabinet face frame, the ceiling skin profile changes just a touch (unplanned, due to bending stress in the ply). The foam piece wanted a little more pressure here, so I slipped a couple of small long sticks in under the stretcher to handle it.
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Continuing with the taillights I cut the top and bottom bevels…
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… and trimmed the longer end so that both ends had about the same margin; just a hedge for uniform hot wire knife action.
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One of the little trapezoidal drops will come into play making the wire knife cutting guides.

Okay, next came a lot of juggling, a little tape and some difficulty holding the camera to boot. The cabin has not been sitting level for some time. The back end is sitting down on the folded saw horse under the build cradle, but the front of the cradle is still sitting up on one of the moving dollies. So to set the taillights plumb to the floor I used a framing square referencing the underside of the floor. Actually, because the hatch bumper hangs down a skosh, I taped a flat shim under the floor to pad it out a little then held the square up to that. I decided to make the reference point for the taillight at the top of the 2 ft side of the square, where it touched. I marked a reference line 1 inch from the back face of the trapezoid and taped that on to the edge of the square. Then I taped a small strip of the 3/4 foam to the edge of the hatch representing the second layer of hatch foam (yet to come). Now when I held the square up along the side of the wall I could trace the appropriate profile segment onto the trapezoid from the other side.
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Now after cutting the curved line on the trapezoid with the steak knife and sanding a little, the foam template matches the profile pretty well (except for the slight gap at the top where I over sanded).
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Traced that onto a scrap of 5mm, compensating for the over sanded area by shifting the foam along the curve to trace that last bit.
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Cut the curved part on the band saw and the angled ends on the miter saw, sanded a little, and it fit nicely.
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Traced that piece again and made a duplicate, shown here back to back and then front to front.
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These will be the templates that guide the hot wire knife while scalloping out the “back” (hatch side) of the taillight blisters.

With one of the blister blanks lying with the flat (rear side) down on the bench, and double sided tape on the templates, I held the flat sides of templates on the bench and used my finger tips to guide them onto the ends of the foam flush to the beveled edges.
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Here it is the other side around.
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Tomorrow I’ll bring the hot knife and old fashioned battery charger and see how it goes.

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My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:55 am

Sounds like a Vast Improvement in the weather there ... :thumbsup: Great progress KC !!! 8)
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:59 am

Actually, because the hatch bumper hangs down a skosh...


Skosh = TLAR engineering jargon ?... :lol:

Quick question on the roof-to-wall radius - do you think there's a potential for the harder ribs to telegraph through the canvas over time and leave a line ?
Were you planning on wrapping something over the corner or is it not likely to be an issue ?

It's gotta feel good to get the foam on and to be at the stage where you're laying out the 'finishing' stuff like tail lights. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby dales133 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:02 pm

Yea it must feel good!
Have you got a pic of the tail lights your using?
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:25 pm

GPW wrote:Sounds like a Vast Improvement in the weather there ... :thumbsup: Great progress KC !!! 8)

Yes! It was up to 69 F in the loft this afternoon with the solar gain and into the 60’s outside. I was wishing I had brought a pair of shorts to change into. Thanks.

Wobbly Wheels wrote:Skosh = TLAR engineering jargon ?... :lol:

Quick question on the roof-to-wall radius - do you think there's a potential for the harder ribs to telegraph through the canvas over time and leave a line ?
Were you planning on wrapping something over the corner or is it not likely to be an issue ?

It's gotta feel good to get the foam on and to be at the stage where you're laying out the 'finishing' stuff like tail lights. :thumbsup:

Skosh, you know, like “hey, scoot over a skosh”, it’s a little bit. I had to look up the spelling cuz I always thought it was “skotch” (say sco-ta-cha). :lol:

Yeah, I am worried about the spars telegraphing thru, both on top and at the ends, but other than fairing it all the best I can and/or using epoxy and glass instead of canvas (… or maybe epoxy and filler over canvas?) I don’t see a good solution. No plans for any hard trim, but if I had it to do over I probably would have made the hard edge in the galley section of the walls full length. Maybe not laminated, but miter joined sections cut to the profile like I did the hatch ribs.

Feels great every time I reach any type of milestone! Even just getting the first bent piece of foam on there, crooked and all, was a bit of a relief. Sometimes I get a little nervous or drag my feet a little when getting into a new area of the build or a new technique, but eventually, so long as it doesn’t turn into a complete flop, I get thru to a happy place.

dales133 wrote:Yea it must feel good!
Have you got a pic of the tail lights your using?

Feels great! The details like the taillight blisters are the fun part. All of the details. Hopefully these are the things that will make all of the time and attention worth it; the things that will make TPCE special and uniquely my brainchild.

Check out today's progress, including a pic of one of the LED taillights sourced from superbrightleds.com.

Brought my hot wire knife and old school battery charger with me from home today. I made this years ago for cutting out model glider wing segments. Simple spine made of two pieces of 1/2 inch ply sandwiched together; a couple of carriage bolts bored into pocket holes with retainer nuts; a length of safety tie wire wrapped around the bolt shanks; and a length of solid copper wire soldered to the far bolt and trained to the other end with wire staples.
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I need to add a tension spring or switch to nickel chromium wire. The steel wire sags with the heat and can be tricky to get a smooth straight cut. I should have double taped the blanks to the bench, but instead just toed them up against a block clamped to the edge. It worked pretty good for the first part of the cut. By pushing the wire down onto the guide templates it kept some tension on the wire, but when it got to the beveled part the downward force flipped the part up and the wire sag nipped a little extra out of the top edge; wiggling around and such, not such a clean cut, shown here after a little hand sanding to knock down the high ridges.
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With it lying on the table you can see how it took the sharp edge off. In hindsight, it may have been better to leave excess for the wire cutting and do the saw cut after the wire cutting.
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Next I double taped the cut off part back on to level the piece for the scroll saw.
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Cut the center out.
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Moved the guide templates to the second blank, paid a little more attention and got a little better result. Still nipped the sharp edge off where the wire exited the foam.
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Next I tilted the scroll saw table to match the bevel and cut the ends off. (This is a mock-up picture, only, with my hand holding the part so as not to block the camera angle. Not a good idea to put your hand under the reciprocating saw arm while it is operating.)
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Sawed a little wide of the line and sanded by hand to dress the saw marks back to the line.
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With the wedge cut piece removed I could fit it to the hatch (despite just having a single layer of foam on the lower street side) and get an idea what it will look like.
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Here it is with the taillight after rounding over the edge of foam around the screw flange a tad with the sanding block.
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Pulled the stretcher off of the upper curb side front radius foam and faired the joint to the lower piece. The PL300 sanded just fine. It rolled over a little where the paper didn’t cut it, but rubbed away in little curls for the most part.
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Karl brought me a cranberry walnut chicken salad sandwich from the Hadlyme Country Store.
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I decided to give that balky can of GS another shot and dragged it out of the trash. Cleaned the straw, trigger nozzle and can spout out again with more acetone, and it seemed like the top of the can spout was weeping a little. It must have sealed itself shut after I cleaned it last, so the trick seems to be to clean after and before each use. Another pointer is, that any foam on the bench is never far enough away from the acetone when cleaning out the can straw; got a spot on the freshly crafted taillight blister. I’ll fill that with something before covering. Also catch that I drilled pilot holes for the taillight screws.
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Back to the front, I reconfigured the stretcher for the street side and put the lower panel, first layer of foam on.
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I think as I cinch the clamps up at the top the stretcher is pulling the panel up with it. The curb side pivoted around the axe mount resulting in the tilt I mentioned, and here on the street side it pulled the whole panel up away from the locker and stone guard “sparette” about 1/8 inch. Not an issue at the top where the spar holds the second panel in place, but is something to be mindful of if I use this technique on the hatch. I'll have to squirt some foam in at the bottom to fill the gap.

I had to patch the stretcher paper. It tore from me pressing by hand from the outside when doing the curb side. Just that little tear was enough to lose tension in that area, but the tape seemed to fix it. I’m thinking that Randy’s Tyvek idea might be a better one because it is really hard to tear.
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Cleaned all of the foam dust out of the wireway and panel seam on the curb side and squeezed some GS in there. Still not thrilled with the performance of this stuff for our needs, but it is what I used. I think I would have been happier just squeezing some window caulk in there, or perhaps some more of the PL300.
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I figured out where I wanted to mount the galley light, laid out the screw holes and wire hole on masking tape on the underside and pilot drilled thru to the outside. From there I put a new spot of tape over the holes on the inside (to prevent glue from dripping in) and glued these little maple blocks on to the outside. The one on the street side is a little wider so that the separate hole for the wires is reinforced, too. I’ll drill thru the blocks using the holes in the skin as a guide after the glue has set. Before gluing I laid a piece of sandpaper over this part of the hatch and sanded the little blocks to the curve so that they would seat on the curve well.
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Located and pilot drilled the hole where the wires will pass thru the skin from the harness into the foam (circled by sharpie).
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I took a hole saw plug of two layers of 5 mm ply off of my rack of little scraps (probably from the spacer I made for the pull box under the tongue box), opened up the center hole and glued that over this wire hole to reinforce where the wire bundle will route thru (shown here under a can of spirits used a s a gravity clamp). I’ll drill the hole up in size from the inside to suit the bundle as needed and prevent splintering.
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Thinking ahead to wiring, I set the final location for the street side taillight and marked it.
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The rewards of my labor, another mockup of the taillight blister.
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My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
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