Foam Outer Finish Material

[Conedodger]

why not just glue one of those pre-finished fiberglass panels fixed directly to the foam ???

There are suppliers of fiberglass covered foam in the UK, its used for fridge vans, there is also honeycomb fiberglass panels like Nidacore but none of the manufactures want to sell it in small quantities. I have been trying to get a list of who they sell it to as i am sure they have bits left over or would sell me a few sheets. Coach companies also use it.

However its only available in flat sheets so you cant make curves on your build and i dont a oblong fancy a box on wheels that looks like a delivery truck after i have seen how much better your rounded corners look.

For interest only: here is one the site that made me want to do this, its using google translate so hope it works. Its interesting to see how they did the cabinets and used white epoxy rather than paint.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... tm&act=url

[eaglesdare]

that site worked for me. pretty cool stuff.

[GPW]

Best use what you can get locally ... What about Salvage ???

[mezmo]

Hi conedodger,

This foam&canvas&T2 idea is very interesting. I see no reason
that it wouldn't work for your project. But we need to remember
this is a NEW approach and everyone is learning by doing. It's
fun to see something develop and take off.

One thing I would think about is that since your unit will be demountable,
perhaps using a perimeter frame around the foam for each section. You
could use nominal sizes of wood for gluing or metal angle for bolting. It
could make for stronger joints for joining them together by epoxying/
gluing wooden frame pieces to their corresponding section frame pieces
or mechanically fastening metal frame pieces and such, and
then 'T2ing' and canvasing & 'T2ing' etc.over that structure. As a
minimum, you should have some base/bottom frame involved I
should think. I guess I'm trying to keep the k.i.s.s. in the approach but
with a little redundancy added.

It sounds like you're going for a PopTop type setup. If you plan on the
whole roof to lift up I should think that you could put in a 4-12 inch or so
deep flange around the top perimeter of the body. This could have one
minimum depth size you determine that's needed for it to function or
varying depths depending on how you could use it as a shelf or cabinet top
etc. That should give you plenty of rigidity on the body top. As I'm a fan of
redundancy in structure [within reason], I'd even add 45 degree diagonal
reinforcements directly under the flange corners, not much material
used for them to give extra triangulation support.

Also, have you looked at any of the Australian Tray Campers for ideas or
inspiration? A good many are composite construction. Just google
"Australian Tray Campers" or "Australian Slide-on Campers". Using the
Google image feature with them is interesting too. They may be a source
for demounting jacks too etc. One of my favorites is:

http://www.innovan.com.au/

It's really innovating and clever. Quite pricey in the real world but a
self-built emulation could be useful for it's builder.

Good luck in your design and build, both should be adventures in them
selves.

Cheers,
Norm/mezmo

[Conedodger]

Hi Mezmo

I had seen the Innovan and in fact i contacted them to see what it would cost to import one but it was not possible due to carriage and taxes making it a fortune and as with all pre made things there was things i didnt like.

The Innovan is all fiberglass and is "Do-able" in foam and fiberglass which is what i was going to do until Eagle and GPW threw the spanner in the works with the T2/Cloth idea.

My best mate makes sandwich vans ( http://www.bob4.com ) and has said he will help if i need it but i think the great thing about this site is the DIY nature. I am still not sure if i am going to make it fit in my current pickup body or make a new flatbed as this would be wider.

I have been drawing plans and one thing i will be doing is making the lower section without a roof as it makes it easier to work, then adding the pop top. You can see one in the Innovan images without a roof. I dont think my old bones could stand working overhead sticking cloth on foam like Eagle did so working downwards would be easier.

I shall be doing my interior in covered foam and agree putting a wood edge to the foam will make it easy to assemble. In fact doing that i could almost make it one part at a time like a flat pack.

Colin

[eaglesdare]

i am so glad you really read our posts! that was the hardest part i believe, working upside down. i was still recovering from surgery so it wasn't easy for me, in fact, i left as much of that part as i could to ratkity to do. she was a great sport about it however and never complained. well she did i think about the 3 legged torture chair.

but yes, if you can do something other than work upside down, please do it.

i am will be trying to figure out my second build how to avoid that same issue.

[GPW]

Cone', no reason you can't put a wood frame around it ... just the simple framing around my door made it solid like a rock ... All in your woodworking /tool abilities ... I could envision some nice rounded , laminated ribs surrounding the foam , slotted to accept cross members (wood also) ... build flat as "modules" , snap together ... as long as the wood bits are "encapsulated" , it should last for some time ..


Eagle , hang on , we're getting to the good parts...

[Wobbly Wheels]

Apologies in advance for the long post...

It's not pertinent to canvas really and may not even be relevant to 'thrifty' (at least not generally, though it is for me), but for my build I'll be glassing over the foam. I've been building boats a long time so I have the tooling and the experience, but if one didn't then I think the canvas is a great idea...and ingenious.

As far as using glass cloth with glue, my biggest concern would be ensuring that the cloth is fully saturated. If it's not, any dry fibers will wick moisture and hold it next to the foam. Temperature changes will cause bubbles to stand out and of course you'll get mold/mildew there too. To do that, I'd put the precut glass into a large freezer bag, dump the glue in, squeeze the air out, and go at it with a rolling pin to ensure it's fully wetted. I do that with epoxy layups and it economizes the epoxy (less drips onto the floor). A piece of 3" ABS sewer pipe makes a great roller.

To be completely fair, I haven't tested glue on glass cloth - those are generalizations about resin-starved layups, but dry cloth is dry cloth. The same capillary action that wets the cloth with resin also works on water (and should work on glue too). Personally, I wouldn't use glass mat at all but that's jmho.

I have made up some test pieces to see how structural joints with epoxy, 6oz cloth and 1" foam will perform. I've used EPS (styro)foam & epoxy together before but only for plugs and molds - never for structural panels.

Here is a link to a photobucket album with pics of the test pieces I made - one is an outside corner, one is a panel seam and one is a tab applied to unsanded foam to see the difference in bond strength between sanding and not sanding the foam before layup. When I've got my answers, I'll post up a thread to share what I found out. The next step is to build a scale shell once I figure out how to scale the cloth weight down.
6oz cloth would be overkill for a 1/10 scale model of the body.

EDIT - upping the pics and vid now...I'll make most of this post into its own thread later. I was most surprised that it didn't seem to make a difference whether the foam was sanded or not - that seems counter-intuitive to me. Of course, it applies to epoxy and not T2/T3...

[GPW]

W2, I think for maximum foam adhesion a perforating tool would be the item to have http://www.amazon.com/Warner-250-Tool-c ... 711&sr=8-4
Especially with epoxy which would form thousands of little epoxy nails to better hold the skin on ... JMHO...

[Conedodger]

Apologies in advance for the long post...

It's not pertinent to canvas really and may not even be relevant to 'thrifty' (at least not generally, though it is for me), but for my build I'll be glassing over the foam. I've been building boats a long time so I have the tooling and the experience, but if one didn't then I think the canvas is a great idea...and ingenious.

As far as using glass cloth with glue, my biggest concern would be ensuring that the cloth is fully saturated. If it's not, any dry fibers will wick moisture and hold it next to the foam. Temperature changes will cause bubbles to stand out and of course you'll get mold/mildew there too. To do that, I'd put the precut glass into a large freezer bag, dump the glue in, squeeze the air out, and go at it with a rolling pin to ensure it's fully wetted. I do that with epoxy layups and it economizes the epoxy (less drips onto the floor). A piece of 3" ABS sewer pipe makes a great roller.

To be completely fair, I haven't tested glue on glass cloth - those are generalizations about resin-starved layups, but dry cloth is dry cloth. The same capillary action that wets the cloth with resin also works on water (and should work on glue too). Personally, I wouldn't use glass mat at all but that's jmho.

I have made up some test pieces to see how structural joints with epoxy, 6oz cloth and 1" foam will perform. I've used EPS (styro)foam & epoxy together before but only for plugs and molds - never for structural panels.

Here is a link to a photobucket album with pics of the test pieces I made - one is an outside corner, one is a panel seam and one is a tab applied to unsanded foam to see the difference in bond strength between sanding and not sanding the foam before layup. When I've got my answers, I'll post up a thread to share what I found out. The next step is to build a scale shell once I figure out how to scale the cloth weight down.
6oz cloth would be overkill for a 1/10 scale model of the body.

EDIT - upping the pics and vid now...I'll make most of this post into its own thread later. I was most surprised that it didn't seem to make a difference whether the foam was sanded or not - that seems counter-intuitive to me. Of course, it applies to epoxy and not T2/T3...

Great tests and your findings are pretty much the same as all the others I have seen. I take it your tests are only one layer. The vid where you are bending the tab joint shows the strength it has, if you had done it on both sides I dont think it would have broken at all. However one thing is clear, once it goes its had it and it has no strength whatsoever and from my tests the same goes for T2 and cloth. Also once it starts to peel its easy to get off.

If we can produce something that stops the initial movement I am sure it would never move.

My fear is the join between the floor and the foam, the last thing I want is to arrive in Mid-spain after a 15 hour drive to find all i had left was a 6' x 8' piece of flat board

[eaglesdare]

cinch straps.

[swampjeep]

Just had a crazy idea (yes, another one ) ... Instead of fiberglassing over the foam , why not just glue one of those pre-finished fiberglass panels fixed directly to the foam ??? You'd have to find the correct adhesive , probably a foam safe "contact cement" ... but it would be MUCH less messy and it's already finished on the outside , eliminating a Ton of sanding and prep/paint work ... STRONG too ... and with a paneled interior , it should be one STRONG structure... Some nice oak "runners" on the outside where the camper contacted the truck bed , would prevent scratching of the Fglas...

where would I look for these fiberglass panels ? what are these used for ?

[Conedodger]

where would I look for these fiberglass panels ? what are these used for ?

These are uk based but may give you an idea what to search on

http://www.captrad.com

http://www.engineered-composites.co.uk/sandwich-panels

http://www.coretexgroup.co.uk

[GPW]

The Foamie is the sum of it's parts , all the parts working together to provide a suitable structure... It's never the materials at issue , it's how you put them together and where you use them ... Cone' if you 're going to do the Ton all the way to Spain , you might need something more "substantial" ...

SJ , Home Depot , Loew's , RV suppliers ...

[swampjeep]

The Foamie is the sum of it's parts , all the parts working together to provide a suitable structure... It's never the materials at issue , it's how you put them together and where you use them ... Cone' if you 're going to do the Ton all the way to Spain , you might need something more "substantial" ...

SJ , Home Depot , Loew's , RV suppliers ...

HD, Lowes? what would there use be, that will help me to know where to look there, I haven't seen them yet.