glue vs epoxy

[eaglesdare]

please do not let this turn into an arguement. this post is for awareness. if you are going to post, keep it on topic.
i am not a technical person, so i will not (me personally) even begin to discuss reasons why, how or whatever. i will leave that to others.


i know there is some debate as to what works, doesn't work, what could be improvd upon etc.

the tb2/3 coated foam, convered with canvas, does work. its been proven. now for how long, well only time will tell. could improvements be made, i am sure the answer is yes.

some things i have read, deal with the issues of glues vs epoxy. if you use canvas, there are the issues of fraying ends of the cut material. its just a given when using material. however, once glued down, its not coming up or off, on its own. i would have to work to pry my ends up and off. left up to nature, well so far, so good. again for how long, only time will tell. but, does it work, yes it does. gpw, also found a way of getting less fraying, he used pinking shears. i remember reading someone else saying they glued canvas first and then cut, making for less fraying.

water proof issues. i have zero issues with water. i can tell you the only place water is going to come into my tear is thru the gaps in my door, or my open window. i have been on about 8 trips this year with it, and at least 6 of the 8 it poured while camping. our first trip out, buckets of water was poured onto my hatch area, i ended up with only a couple drops of water that came in thru the "un"treated canvas. so is it water proof? yes it is. my hatch area has been completely treated now, so i haven't had any water issues back there since.

as most of us know, my foamie developed bubbles/delamination/blisters, what ever word you want to use. a couple of us guess this is because of the cinch straps i use, compressing the foam. others, have different thoughts of the cause. i just spoke via chat with dave, the blue bonnet builder. in case you are not aware, he built the first foamie that i know of. he used the pink foam, he used good ole gorilla glue, but he used epoxy vs what i used tb2. a very interesting thing came out of that conversation. he has blistering. he did tell me once he repaired the spot, so far it hasn't come back. i have not tried to repair my bubbles yet, so i can't comment on that part.

what i find interesting here, is that even using epoxy, there was blistering/bubbling.

we have mentioned this before in one of our threads about using a perferation(sp?) type tool. dave said, if he were to do again, that is one of the improvements he would make. we need to work on getting whatever adhesive/coating we are going to use, into that foam. "root" system so to speak (mentioned here somewhere).

my point being, one glued foamie has blisters, and one epoxy foamie has blisters. we all can speculate on the causes. dave's epoxy foamie has been camping for 3 yrs now also. my glued foamie only 1 yr.

so i don't know what else to say about this right now. i will leave it up for discussion. remember to keep it clean, and i will not allow an arguement to start.

i wished mikes was further into the build so we would have more experience with primer vs glue vs epoxy.

[pete42]

Louella
I have seen blisters on fiberglass sailboats the cause I was told was moisture
being trapped when the fiberglass was being laid over the gel coat
I have read about the filon (sic) sided travel trailers having de-lamination
I have built or help build two all fiberglass airplanes I have never heard about any of the hundreds of the same type having blisters.
the idea of using a device to poke small holes into the foam to allow the TB to penetrate into the foam and form a better bond sounds like a good idea.
If one wants a light weight trailer foam sounds like the way to go
whatever one chooses to use to apply the canvas be it TB or epoxy or paint all seem to work.
like you said time will tell what works and what doesn't what is easy to fix and what is just a big PITA.

[GPW]

All this is old knowledge on other sites ... yet to gain credibility here ...

My little “toyâ€

[Larry C]

please do not let this turn into an arguement. this post is for awareness. if you are going to post, keep it on topic.
i am not a technical person, so i will not (me personally) even begin to discuss reasons why, how or whatever. i will leave that to others.


i know there is some debate as to what works, doesn't work, what could be improvd upon etc.

the tb2/3 coated foam, convered with canvas, does work. its been proven. now for how long, well only time will tell. could improvements be made, i am sure the answer is yes.

some things i have read, deal with the issues of glues vs epoxy. if you use canvas, there are the issues of fraying ends of the cut material. its just a given when using material. however, once glued down, its not coming up or off, on its own. i would have to work to pry my ends up and off. left up to nature, well so far, so good. again for how long, only time will tell. but, does it work, yes it does. gpw, also found a way of getting less fraying, he used pinking shears. i remember reading someone else saying they glued canvas first and then cut, making for less fraying.

water proof issues. i have zero issues with water. i can tell you the only place water is going to come into my tear is thru the gaps in my door, or my open window. i have been on about 8 trips this year with it, and at least 6 of the 8 it poured while camping. our first trip out, buckets of water was poured onto my hatch area, i ended up with only a couple drops of water that came in thru the "un"treated canvas. so is it water proof? yes it is. my hatch area has been completely treated now, so i haven't had any water issues back there since.

as most of us know, my foamie developed bubbles/delamination/blisters, what ever word you want to use. a couple of us guess this is because of the cinch straps i use, compressing the foam. others, have different thoughts of the cause. i just spoke via chat with dave, the blue bonnet builder. in case you are not aware, he built the first foamie that i know of. he used the pink foam, he used good ole gorilla glue, but he used epoxy vs what i used tb2. a very interesting thing came out of that conversation. he has blistering. he did tell me once he repaired the spot, so far it hasn't come back. i have not tried to repair my bubbles yet, so i can't comment on that part.

what i find interesting here, is that even using epoxy, there was blistering/bubbling.

we have mentioned this before in one of our threads about using a perferation(sp?) type tool. dave said, if he were to do again, that is one of the improvements he would make. we need to work on getting whatever adhesive/coating we are going to use, into that foam. "root" system so to speak (mentioned here somewhere).

my point being, one glued foamie has blisters, and one epoxy foamie has blisters. we all can speculate on the causes. dave's epoxy foamie has been camping for 3 yrs now also. my glued foamie only 1 yr.

so i don't know what else to say about this right now. i will leave it up for discussion. remember to keep it clean, and i will not allow an arguement to start.

i wished mikes was further into the build so we would have more experience with primer vs glue vs epoxy.

As far as the epoxy blistering, I can think of a few possibilities. Perforating the foam would probably help prevent it. If the layup was done using a squeegee and a lot of force was applied in one area, a small dent may have been caused in the foam, allowing the glass to float in one small area. Another possibility is contamination on the surface of the foam or maybe wet-out wasn't through or squeegeed enough. Lots of possible causes.
I think a good solution is to perforate the foam, and roll on a layer of fumed silica thickened epoxy (others fillers would also work), and lay the glass into the thicken epoxy, and then wet out. The thickened epoxy will act like a glue, plus it will key into the perforations in the foam.
I have used this method over soft wood to help it's impact/abrasion resistance in strategic areas on boats.
Blisters can be easily repaired by injecting thickened epoxy into the blister with a dentists plastic syringe.
Just my thoughts...
Larry C

[GPW]

I think surface contamination would be a good cause of a blister ... Being an old “painterâ€

[eaglesdare]

yeah i couldn't remember who used glue to dry then cut as a trick. thanks pat!


i do think on my second one i will use something to get into the foam, root system. and i may buy some better tools to get nicer, more accurate cuts (i'll just tell hubby they are for him, he'll get them after i use them though, don't tell).

[eaglesdare]

so when you perforate the foam, then coat with what ever, epoxy or glue, the only thing that goes into the perforation is the epoxy or glue? not the material or fiberglass right?
(i know you all know the answer, but remember who i am, i don't).
i would be the one out there with a stick pin trying to get threads into the foam!

[GPW]

Yes, just the glue gets into the perforations ... Now theoretically , one could mix in small bits of fiberglass threads with the glue which would also get into the perforations and form little fiberglass “nails “ ...

[eaglesdare]

Yes, just the glue gets into the perforations ... Now theoretically , one could mix in small bits of fiberglass threads with the glue which would also get into the perforations and form little fiberglass “nails “ ...

interesting indeed. i think those thread would hold with the material better also. i was thinking this would be tedious and extremely time consuming, but if one were to lay down the fiber first, then perforate and soak with glue, then add the material, those fibers would then attach to the material as they all dried. might work, good root system.

[eaglesdare]

stop rolling your eyes! if we all rolled our eyes when you first started this, we wouldn't be where we are today! 3 pages into our own subforum.

just bustin on ya glen.

[eaglesdare]

now about that tool, would a serrated type pizza cutter to the trick? i doubt it huh. since those are made to cut, guess that wouldn't be a good thing.
ok, going back out to find where we talk about that tool.

[GPW]

I believe they are commonly available at the paint and wallpaper store ... for perforating wallpaper , a wicked tool as Big Mike said Cheap usually ... Don’t stick yourself ...


Since glue works on more or less a molecular level .. the size of the perforation doesn’t have to be Big , just make a Lot of them ... if you think about it , it just increases the total surface gluing area...

Even Ice works as a glue ... if it’s COLD enough ... as some of you might already know ...

[Larry C]

Yes, just the glue gets into the perforations ... Now theoretically , one could mix in small bits of fiberglass threads with the glue which would also get into the perforations and form little fiberglass “nails “ ...

interesting indeed. i think those thread would hold with the material better also. i was thinking this would be tedious and extremely time consuming, but if one were to lay down the fiber first, then perforate and soak with glue, then add the material, those fibers would then attach to the material as they all dried. might work, good root system.

Epoxy fillers come in several types. One is chopped glass fibers that are about 1/8" long. These fillers add tremendous strength to the mix as well as weight. The glass cloth embedded in this mixture would be quite hard and strong. This would be a good approach at corners that were vulnerable to impacts. However smoothing and sanding these cured mixtures is difficult. they get really hard! They are typically use as glues,
but may be a good way of have very strong lay-ups over foam.

[GPW]

Larry , that 1/8â€

[Larry C]

now about that tool, would a serrated type pizza cutter to the trick? i doubt it huh. since those are made to cut, guess that wouldn't be a good thing.
ok, going back out to find where we talk about that tool.

You could make one by driving many short drywall screws into a piece of 1/2" plywood. Letting the points (1/8") just stick through.. Mount a door pull handle on it.