Build-Thread (sort of) - Hybrid(?) FOAMIE

[JDHIV]

Hell folks!

I have decided to build a most-foamie or a little hybrid (?) foamie in that I NEED to keep the weight down..but I'm 6'3" and I can't deal with too small of a trailer...I want to be comfy and I want to use this for years to come.

I'm only at the "trailer" part of my build at this point...and I have been doing more UNbuilding (i.e. demo work) than building...but I took lots of pics along the way through the last couple days.

I started with a 1970's Coleman Popup trailer (ValleyForge model) that I bought from a guy in NJ two years ago (I live on Long Island, N.Y.). It was a 1600lb behemoth that I shouldn't have been towing with my car for 2-3 hours. He had no title and I went through Hell to get it registerd in NYS without one...1200lb max weight limit on "home made trailers"...so I took all kinds of any/everythign out of it so I could tow it to a weigh-station..get a printout and then go back to the DMV to get it...

...ANYway, I went to pop it up this week (with the seeds of a TD design already in my head) with a buddy after it has been sitting for almost two years in my backyard....well, lifting mechanism WENT!

So, DEMOLITION it was (see below):



I cut some of the extra width of the X-members at this point to reduce weight and because the metal was a bit bent and slightly torn in spots that far out because of judicious use of a sledgehammer and other tools!

NOW, I want to extend the width back out to the tires for more interior space in the future camper and am getting the sense that if I bolt/screw (which is better?) 2x2's to the X-members on the frame I can do so. I will be extending the floorplan (width) back out roughly 8-12" on EACH side and then putting a thin subfloor on it consisting of 1/8" or 1/4" PLY that will sandwich some thin hard foam insulation...a mostly-foamie will go on that....1.5-2" hard foam walls with some wood for framing the TD profile shape, spars, and bulkheads. I'll plan to skin in whatever is lighter both inside and out....aesthetics are not my main concern; functionality and longevity and utility AND lightweight are my main concerns.

I began to get some answers to this in another thread...but realize this is better done here...so, thanks in advance!!!


Anyway, I'm at the point now where I want to

[GPW]

Too bad you cut the outer framing off the trailer , then you wouldn’t need the 2X4s... But that’s that eh !!!

[JDHIV]

Too bad you cut the outer framing off the trailer , then you wouldn’t need the 2X4s... But that’s that eh !!!

Yep, I would've been bending the metal back from how I sledgehammered it out of place a bit and tore some of it.............but I assume that the metal-weight loss should equal the wood-weight-gain, right?

Also, do I need 2x4's? or can I get away with 2x2's (or 1x3's?) .....to save weight?

I'm going to run outside now and take a pic with the way I have the wheel-wells / fenders from the popup placed back on top to get an idea of spacing and exactly how much I think I need to add back to the width....BRB!

Plus, I will link to the guy's build and trailer that I want to mostly mimic !

_John

[JDHIV]

What about using 1" square aluminum tube at 1/20 thickness as the new X-member extensions....they are a little pricey at $16/8' length...but I could cut them down to the just-under-6' length and screw/bolt them to the current trailer...would only add about 5lbs of weight and my PLY-insulation-PLY sandwich subfloor can be affixed to that....DO Y'ALL THINK THIS PRODUCT COULD SUPPORT THE weight of a Foamie-plus-some wood construction if I extend an additional 6-10" outside EACH side of the trailer??????


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Crown-Bolt-1 ... g_VoD_pxvY

OR.......................I can sacrifice weight-.vs.-price and use 2x2's that would weight about 20-25lbs total...or full-on 2x4's would weigh about 40-45lbs more before I even begin building a sub-floor.

IF you take a look at the following pics you will see where the trailer X-members now end once I cut them and where I have placed the old wheelwells/fenders. I have 53" from outside edges of the tubular steel (part of the wishbone) front-to-back parts of the trailer.....so withOUT extension I have to build inward from that and would lose about 3-4" on each side for foam wall construction...so, INside I'd be down to about 46 inches (just shy of 4 feet)..and for any normal sized bed for even just me, that isn't enough.

SO, without having to use full 2x4's....what should I use to make the width extensions and how far can I push the extension seeing as how the foam/wood-ish walls will be resting on this? Keep in mind the fenders are sitting on two pairs of extra steel I did NOT cut..and the walls will have support from them as well!







Thanks again everyone who has (and will be) been helpful!!!! I'm also quite detailed in my questions...sorry

[JDHIV]

If I use 2x2's.....they are cheap and would only add up to a total of about 18lbs .vs. the more expensive (and maybe not as stiff?) 1" square aluminum tube. So, I MAY've answered my own Q....but I don't fully know.

I have to run 5x 6foot lengths of some lumber across the 5 main X-members to be able to get the additional 8" or so on EACH side....this will provide me the ability to build thick (i.e. foam) walls and still have a fairly well accepted 60-62" INNER width to put a proper sized bed in and have more space.

So, I would like to get away with using 2x2's (lighter)...and will either Spar Varnish them or use the "magic mix" of Min-Spirits/Paint-thinner + Polyureth.................beyond that....BOLT -OR- SCREW the lumber down into the metal of the trailer?

Next I'll figure out how to put the pics of the shape I intend to use/copy!

Thanks!

_John

[GPW]

2X2s would probably work ... just use more of them ... @ 16” center... Would only be a couple extra ... The Foam shell/cabin doesn’t weigh much ... Actually the lightest part of the build if you don’t go crazy adding more wood ... As for 2x2s , I’d look around at a reputable lumberyard for some Clear and dry pressure treated wood ... It’s knot free, usually very straight grain, and the treatment is fully dry , so it can be painted or worked with immediately ... you may have to get the 2X4s and have them ripped (a dollar a cut ) ... Usually much better/stronger wood overall , probably a couple more bucks .... well worth it ... If you live in a place where you can get straight grain Hickory 2X2s , that would be the Ultimate , and not really that expensive...
Best thing is to weigh everything before you add it ... Then you’ll know where the weight is ...

[pchast]

If you build the floor as a 'Torsion Box' there is no problem with the lighter lumber. Pay attention
to the orientation of the grain in the box layers. Its amazing how rigid it will become with just
a 1/8 ply covering on top and bottom. If concerned you could use a heavier skin for the topper.

[JDHIV]

2X2s would probably work ... just use more of them ... @ 16” center... Would only be a couple extra ... The Foam shell/cabin doesn’t weigh much ... Actually the lightest part of the build if you don’t go crazy adding more wood ... As for 2x2s , I’d look around at a reputable lumberyard for some Clear and dry pressure treated wood ... It’s knot free, usually very straight grain, and the treatment is fully dry , so it can be painted or worked with immediately ... you may have to get the 2X4s and have them ripped (a dollar a cut ) ... Usually much better/stronger wood overall , probably a couple more bucks .... well worth it ... If you live in a place where you can get straight grain Hickory 2X2s , that would be the Ultimate , and not really that expensive...
Best thing is to weigh everything before you add it ... Then you’ll know where the weight is ...

-------------------------------------------
Thanks GPW (again!) !!

1...I don't know what you mean by use more 2x2's "...@ 16" center..." I know that most houses are built with the middle of each 2x4-stud being spaced "sixteen inches apart on center"....so, should I do more than the 5 main X-members that I have? Are you saying to start at the back of the trailer with a 2x2 and then as I look at it sideways (rear of trailer at my left..front all the way to the right) that I should be running a 2x2 every 16 inches whether or not there is a metal X-member or not??????

On the length of trailer I have (~110" = just over 10') I'd be doing about 7 of these 2x2's right?


2....IF what I surmise above is true, then going 16" on center might skip a number of the 5 metal X-members since they are weirdly spaced....are you suggesting to stay true to the centering at 16" apart...or use the 5 X-members and then put two more in the widest spaces?


3....I'll definitely look into a lumber yard...we must have one around here...it's just that many have gone out of business in the last 10 years as HD and Lowes have spread like wildfire. I've seen people on HD's website complain about how the dimensions are off and maybe the mill is purposely cutting them too small to squeeze out an extra unit every so-many of them...and then suggested buying the double-size lumber and just ripping it.................sounds like a solid plan!

4....How many times across the 53" of each X-member (if applicable) would you run a bolt?

5.... And all of my X-members are hollow with one vertical side missing (so, shaped like long square letters "C"s....I'm guessing you'd run the bolts all the way down through both surfaces right?

6.......... T H A N K S !!!!!!!!!!!

[JDHIV]

If you build the floor as a 'Torsion Box' there is no problem with the lighter lumber. Pay attention
to the orientation of the grain in the box layers. Its amazing how rigid it will become with just
a 1/8 ply covering on top and bottom. If concerned you could use a heavier skin for the topper.

----Thanks Pchast! I'll look into the "Torsion Box" and see if it would end up being lighter overall....I was planning to be making an insulated sandwich of thin ply- and some rigid foam in between that was going to be on top of all the 2x2 X-members....This may kind of kill two birds with one foam...or at least less overall wood.

I need to be extending my floorplan 8" further out on EACH of the left and right sides, beyond the trailer metal.

-----What do you mean "pay attention to the orientation of the grain in the box layers" ?? Are you referring to the PLY or the grain in the 2x2's?

Thanks!!!!!!!!

[JDHIV]

T H E ... I N T E N D E D ... S H A P E is based on the Kampmaster, except with a more truncated and vertical rear end....and NO popping up (beyond my skills to build it and do it well).

More specifically, I want it to look like the "Wild Goose" by Aligator944 whose build begins at: http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=49879


And if I did this right...here is a picture of it close to (or completely) done!


Here is another from Larry____ I forgot the rest as the window closed and came back here and I can't find it again as it was a "random" image when I did some search after clicking on "Gallery" above here.


Thanks guys for the images and your awesome TD's !....and now off to research "Torsion Boxes"

[GPW]

"or use the 5 X-members and then put two more in the widest spaces?” ... Yes !!!

[kudzu]

The sandwich of materials you are referring to could become your torsion box, foam in middle with wood glued on all sides. I've yet to plan my torsion box style floor so can't tell you specifics of what makes one sandwich design a torsion box & another just a sandwich. Maybe it's the mayo.

Here is a link to the album where you can find Larry's pic. gallery/album.php?album_id=1992

I like the camper style you have chosen. If you are going with a frame wide enough for the bed to run side to side that leaves a lot more floor space. Since you are like most of us trying to minimize weight because of our TV then you won't be over filling the space with lots of wood cabinets. That leaves even more open space inside. Are you planning to do a dropped floor?

Don't worry about having scrapped the sides. It's all a trade off. My trailer was from a pop up turned in for salvage. The salvage guy thought he could fix it up & took it home. Interior was too far gone so he stripped it to make a utility trailer but changed his mind after realizing how many trailers he'd have in the yard then. (His wife may have played a role in the decision.) He left the metal framing on the sides but stripped off fenders, bumper & stabilizer jacks, all of which I wish he'd left. BUT at least I wasn't to person who ended up doing the demo. He said the hardest part was dealing with the millions of fire ants residing in every nook & cranny. Ack! I was immediately glad it was him & not me who found that nasty surprise inside.

Can't help you with the decision on the aluminum tubing except to warn you to check carefully & plan appropriately before mixing metals. Would there be a corrosion problem bolting aluminum to steel?

Laura

[JDHIV]

The sandwich of materials you are referring to could become your torsion box, foam in middle with wood glued on all sides. I've yet to plan my torsion box style floor so can't tell you specifics of what makes one sandwich design a torsion box & another just a sandwich. Maybe it's the mayo.

Here is a link to the album where you can find Larry's pic. gallery/album.php?album_id=1992

I like the camper style you have chosen. If you are going with a frame wide enough for the bed to run side to side that leaves a lot more floor space. Since you are like most of us trying to minimize weight because of our TV then you won't be over filling the space with lots of wood cabinets. That leaves even more open space inside. Are you planning to do a dropped floor?

Don't worry about having scrapped the sides. It's all a trade off. My trailer was from a pop up turned in for salvage. The salvage guy thought he could fix it up & took it home. Interior was too far gone so he stripped it to make a utility trailer but changed his mind after realizing how many trailers he'd have in the yard then. (His wife may have played a role in the decision.) He left the metal framing on the sides but stripped off fenders, bumper & stabilizer jacks, all of which I wish he'd left. BUT at least I wasn't to person who ended up doing the demo. He said the hardest part was dealing with the millions of fire ants residing in every nook & cranny. Ack! I was immediately glad it was him & not me who found that nasty surprise inside.

Can't help you with the decision on the aluminum tubing except to warn you to check carefully & plan appropriately before mixing metals. Would there be a corrosion problem bolting aluminum to steel?

Laura

Hi Laura and Thanks! "Mayo" ...LOL After waking up today..it has sort of hit me that I will put plywood down directly on my frame but plan to go out 8-10 inches further away from the current sides (i.e. overhang)....and this will be followed by 2x2's right above that (to the same width) and these two members will be bolted to the trailer frame...I'll fill the spaces in with 2" foam before covering with the last sandwich layer of more plywood that will be both glued and screwed into the first ply / 2x2's....I'm not sure if I'll really make it a torsional-box by also having 2x2's that run front to back...I probably will on the outside that I overhand the trailer with.

I'm not sure if I'll be wide enough for a side-ways bed, but even at 6'3" I don't usually stretch ALL the way out...but my trailer is not going to be 72 wide....it'll be more like 5.75' wide OUTSIDE....minus 3-4" per side/wall = ~62" or 2" more than 5' inner space...I'll have to measure out on the floor (or my bed) and see if I can sleep in that space...I think it'd be like sleeping sideways on my queen-sized bed?

Thanks for the link to LarryGG 's stuff! That was the larry picture I posted above and couldn't find "larry" in doing a search!

AS FAR AS CABINETS and such...I'm not sure if/how much hatch and galley area to make...I DO like the idea of some shelving that faces outside in a hatch area to put a few things like those Sterilite brand plastic chest of drawers and it'd be a place to secure the cooler, portable camp stove, deepcycle marine batter and a few other things to keep that aspect organized...plus the requisite bulkhead would give structure and strength!

As far as a dropped floor goes...likely not...they way I plan to design this to save adding too much height makes it hard to get it down through my plywood-foam-plywood sandwich floor....besides, there isn't THAT much space between the cross members to have any useful area "dropped".

Good point on the mixing of metals...I think cost alone is going to put the kibosh on such an idea anyway..but thanks!

YES, I found a colony of ants in mine too as I demo'd it...but they didn't like the sawzall vibrations and they are NOT the fire-variety thankfully!

Also, I will have to build on top of the fenders with my sandwich/torsion-esque box idea...so there is a wooden surface to affix to!!
Thanks Laura!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------
Thanks!

"or use the 5 X-members and then put two more in the widest spaces?” ... Yes !!!

Thanks again GPW! I will be putting down a layer of ply directly on the trailer and then letting it overhang about 8"-10" and then running the 2x2's at the suggested spacing...bolting this to the frame..filling the voids with 2" foam and then gluing/screwing the top ply layer to all of that...................DO I NEED TO RUN 2X2'S from front to back at the edges of the other 2x2 X-members in order to make it more rigid, before I put the top ply layer on????????????

Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!

[wagondude]

The sandwich of materials you are referring to could become your torsion box, foam in middle with wood glued on all sides. I've yet to plan my torsion box style floor so can't tell you specifics of what makes one sandwich design a torsion box & another just a sandwich. Maybe it's the mayo.

Laura

"Torsion box" and "sandwich" are basically two ways of saying the same thing. They are built up without necessarily gluing (or even using) the foam in place. In come cases, just enough glue is used to keep the foam in place during construction. For that application, the foam would not be structural. To build a structural (SIP) panel, there needs to be full glue contact on all faces of the foam with the surrounding framing members and the face skins.

[JDHIV]

"Torsion box" and "sandwich" are basically two ways of saying the same thing. They are built up without necessarily gluing (or even using) the foam in place. In come cases, just enough glue is used to keep the foam in place during construction. For that application, the foam would not be structural. To build a structural (SIP) panel, there needs to be full glue contact on all faces of the foam with the surrounding framing members and the face skins.

Cool..thanks Bill!!!! So, my bottom of Sandwich of PLy directly on trailer frame...which will overhang by 8-10" off the sides of the trailer...Then a series of 2x2 crossmembers and whatever the ones that are called that run front-to-back make up a frame along with the X-members.............THIS SO FAR is bolted to the metal frame where it can be.......

...THEN the foam is glued down into the recesses/voids between the first ply and the 2x2 framing and THEN the top play is glued and screwed down into all that?

DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT?? Keep in mind I'm building a foamie and not sure if the 8-10" extension of the flooring will be too much for my type of sandwich...I'll also have to go and intrude into cabin space a little as I cover the fenders/wheel-wells with wood (probably glue pieces of wood over them adn to the other wooden framework).

Thanks!!!!!!!