Sleeping on the roof

[mvankanan]

Hi I'm mike from NH, I want to build a sleeping top for my 93 Grand Cherokee. It will be on the roof, about 2' h 4' w 10' L. It will kind of look like an over the cab truck camper that had been cut along a line 2' from the top and 3/4 of the way to the back and then straight down so the last 3' was still in complete. Or maybe like the top from those built up vans? I will climb up from the back and maybe up through a hole for a sunroof, though that might be problematic with the spacing between the structural ribs and the slope on the front of the build leaving not to much head room? Would be nice to have a view up from the drivers seat and out a window on the front of the build, bird watching?

I'm looking to do all foam or as much as I can. I want be able to carry stuff on the roof. Tentatively I'm thinking of springing for a 3" or 4" inch thick piece of foam for the bottom and sculpting that to fit the roof curve but leaving a flat inside floor? I have a source for cheap foam not to far away in Worcester MA. The rest I'm thinking of 2"?

I will build a mock up, maybe just a profile, on the roof racks to get some measurements and try to get some pictures up here? I'm looking to go to the library today and get some "Geezer" help! they have kids from the high school on Mondays, might be canceled today, snow. Anyway if that's successful I will post a picture of the "Grey Slug" last years build, not foam but poor mans fiberglass, on some old plywood paneling.

I want to say that there are some incredible builds on here, me, I'll probably be way down on the "Rustic" side of the street

Mike

[Tomterrific]

I think I know what you want. A problem for me is the added height. I would design something fancy like a top with fold up sides to support it. Something like a plywood base with the sides and ends hinged to the base lying flat. The sides, front and back would fold up under the top to support it. I know this is a poor description but simply something like a tiny A-frame.

T

[tony.latham]

I think I know what you want.

Me too...

[KCStudly]

Why not a ready made RTT (roof top tent)? Folds down flat for travel, raises up with plenty of room for sleep. Both have to climb up to.

If I was going to permanently raise the roof on a non-FSJ grand (which I wouldn't, I'd build a TD) I would consider removing the rear lift gate and building out an insert like pod to make for an entryway and ladder chase from inside. I figure, just winging it off the top of my head, that if you extend teh slope of the windshield up, there is probably only about a mattress worth of roof left to sleep on, so no room for an inside chase to climb up.

There was a guy here for a while that was developing a fiberglass concept kit parts for Jeep style trailers. He had done some previous/parallel projects with fiberglass body kits for modifying Jeep roofs, etc. Wish I could remember the name.

Also, there was another builder that started planning a FG project that replaced the hard top on a Wrangler with an insert style camper. Maybe you could get some inspiration by searching out those threads.

[mvankanan]

[quote="KCStudly"]Why not a ready made RTT (roof top tent)?

Don't want that, want to be able to stop and climb in and sleep in certain situations without moving any other stuff.

If I was going to permanently raise the roof on a non-FSJ grand (which I wouldn't, I'd build a TD) I would consider removing the rear lift gate and building out an insert like pod to make for an entryway and ladder chase from inside. I figure, just winging it off the top of my head, that if you extend teh slope of the windshield up, there is probably only about a mattress worth of roof left to sleep on, so no room for an inside chase to climb up.

Removing the rear hatch and extending the build is part of the plan because there wouldn't be room.

Thanks mike

Hey Tony soon enough

[mvankanan]

I think I know what you want. A problem for me is the added height. I would design something fancy like a top with fold up sides to support it. Something like a plywood base with the sides and ends hinged to the base lying flat. The sides, front and back would fold up under the top to support it. I know this is a poor description but simply something like a tiny A-frame.

T

Tom I don't like the added height but I lived with it last summer with the slug this won't be much higher.

No Gezzer help today, so no pictures. I read on the forum about how too and I got a headache

Mike

[Don L.]

Wow, I love the foam coffin! Talk about thrifty!

[mvankanan]

Test slug picture

The new build will not be pointed in front but extend across the whole front roof line above the windshield. Not sure of the angle, steeper then the windshield line I’m sure, to get height. I could use some help with aerodynamics, though I guess the lower the angle the better. Would one of those scoop things on the big rigs help?

It will then hang off the back about 3’ and extend down and rest on something attached to the trailer hitch. That will give me enough space to sleep in, and a little more storage in the back of the vehicle. I would also like to try to incorporate a space to maybe cook in on occasion sitting on one side. I’m looking for a place for spare tires, I’d like to carry two so maybe a two piece rear hatch with the tires attached to the lower half that folds down and then a upper half that that lifts up? I would like to have a one piece hatch there’s a lot of value in a big over hang in bad weather but the weight of the tires might be a problem.

So that’s the general idea.

Mike

Pictures

[mvankanan]

A question or three, even though I didn’t want to start asking till I had a mock up built but I have a problem in that I need to get the roof racks off to do the mock up and I need the racks to carry the materials. Don’t really have the money to buy it all now? Also the place with the cheap foam doesn’t have any XPS now, “call back in a month or two”. So it might be Home Depot $34 for 2”, looks like 7or 8 sheets.

Last year I bought some strapping to do a mock up but that’s junk, so I’m thinking of buying either 1x? pine or ripping 2x? and reusing it. I think that most folks use some kind of rafters for lack of a better term, and then put the roof on that. Do I need them? What should I use; the roof and side walls will be 2” foam? I want to have some kind of rack on top, or should I say just some kind of way to tie down, I used eye bolts on the slug.
I had an idea to get a 3 or 4” piece for the bottom and forming it to fit the curve of the roof for the floor so the top of the floor would stay flat? Seems that might be a bit of chore. After looking at seanc’s build and that gasket he used I thought a better idea would be carve the side and front section and then install that gasket, that way I’m only dealing with shaping the 2” wide piece to the roof curve, then slide the floor in and attach it how it lies, perhaps a few spacers to insure it has roof contact where needed? I was going to use some kind of gasket any way.

I would also like to cut a hole in the roof and install a piece of glass in the front of the build, more for the view up while driving. I’ve been thinking I should have some kind of safety glass for this and the window from the hatch looks good for this? I’m thinking this will take a beating from the road like a windshield, and if I’m in an accident it could be in my lap. I would think that any kind of plastic would get pretty scratched up. Any thoughts on this?

I’m also looking for a place to store spare tires, I would really like two. My fall back position would be on the roof. I think perhaps a better idea would be on the rear of the build but I don’t think I could put them on the new hatch to heavy to lift? Since I need something to support the back I’m thinking of some kind of swing out thing that’s separate from the hatch, I think that the make these already for one tire? Any thoughts on this?

Also since the opening above the front seats won’t be big enough to get up through because of the slant on the top, I’m thinking about a second opening behind the roof beam in the roof, like a second sun roof, I’ve seen pictures on the internet that showed a Cherokee with an all glass roof, other than the roof beam, so it must be doable? Not sure where to get the info on what is safe with the unitized bodies? Want to do it myself anybody know anything about this? My guess is that the build it self will be a bit like a truss? I think the second opening would really make this sweet, allowing access from both ends.

I got a promise for a sun roof from a Volvo, haven’t seen it yet but I’m thing it might be nice in the roof of the build for views, along with a couple of operating windows on the sides.

Finally thought as far as the skin, any value in double bed sheets, I would think it would be still lighter then canvas?

Mike

[troubleScottie]

Everything is a compromise.

Most likely you really want something like a Sprinter: greater width, taller, larger volume, possible to stand up in. I have seen some impressive van to motor home conversions. Not particularly cheap, but very nice.

This whole thing reminds me of the Top Gear car to caravan conversion and James' solution ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7g08nwEmyY ) Hopefully you will have better outcome.

On the tires on the rear tail gate. Most likely too heavy to lift the gate and unlikely that the tailgate hinges were designed to carry that kind of weight. Definitely not the air shocks. Look at the structural changes for vehicles carrying their space on the back of the car. The roof might work but you are really ruling out any sleeping quarter.

Cooking in an enclosed 2 foot high area : death trap comes to mind. There is no safe way of doing this -- too small, no easy egress, sanitation issues, ventilation issues, etc. Try cooking while lying on your bed. Just being reclined creates a lot of problems. You might consider standing up into the berthing area, but it will be pretty short. That is why most TD have a rear galley outside that you cook from OR just unpack and use the great outdoors as your kitchen. There are obvious issues with bad weather, etc. But that is something everyone camping has to deal with. One could go to a hotel/restaurant.

As to aerodynamics, basically no matter what you do, you are basically confined to the front facing cross sectional area of the vehicle. Assuming constant width, the taller it is, the more drag. To a large extent, a TD is following in the slip stream of the Towing Vehicle (TV), hence not adding much to the aerodynamic drag of the TV.

On climbing in from inside the TV: again a bit questionable. With a popup tent with reasonably unconstrained height, I would imagine it is going to be a bit awkward. Do you have step or ladder, how to get to the ladder or step. The bigger the opening, the less sleeping area. Climbing into a rigid short (2 foot ) place is going to be pretty taxing. Think about climbing into your kitchen cabinets. They are 30+ inches tall and it is pretty hard.

Also the whole concept of a short sleeping area is a bit questionable. (Back to James May above) A short TD is 48" tall and some people find it a bit claustrophobic and even difficult to change clothes in. Personally camping in the short tents eg bivy tent was difficult. I always preferred a dome style tent. One might argue, that a reclining front seat might be as comfortable and the only work you have to do is release the latch to fold down the seat and grab your blankie and pillow.


Good luck.

[mvankanan]

Michael thanks for the reply, I'm going to have to get some pictures up for sure. I'll try to explain a little better in the meantime,not trying to waste anyone's time, hope I'm not becoming a PIA. I'm fine with sleeping in the top, I've been practicing under my coffee table

The hatch along with the hinges will be gone, the build will extend out the back of the vehicle about 30" and be open to the top of the build, the bottom will sit on something attached to the trailer hitch. I have one of those carrier things now, like you see with coolers and gas cans on. I'm using that to play around with and get dimension but it's pretty heavy and I'm sure I can get something lighter. I will have a space about 30"x 48" x 70" high, that's were I was thinking of cooking, occasionally. More than likely I will have some kind of tent out the back, Kelty makes one, pretty pricey, I have an old portable screen house I used last year out the back of the Subaru but I really didn't use it, no bugs on my trip out west last year. I sleep out with out a tent when I can, had some great nights last year, full moon, elk bugling.

I looked at those swing out tire carriers a bit today, they attach to the bumper, so maybe I can work out some thing with whatever I settle on to hold the back end up, but two tires will add some weight. I'm not planning on putting much out past the end of the vehicle anyway other then the build. They are pretty pricey too. About the two tires, I had one and the doughnut last year, had to limp out on the doughnut after two flats, kind of lucky, there where places I went where I would have had trouble getting out with it.

My gas mileage dropped by about 2 mpg over 5,500 miles last year with the slug on the Subaru. I actually climbed up into the slug, to short to stay though.

Love top gear, maybe I should think about a second story? Love a sprinter, the 4wheeler from Germany though Dream would be 4x4 van, short wheel base 12' box home made pop up, winches for and aft.

You said "Look at the structural changes for vehicles carrying their space on the back of the car." Where might I look for that?

Mike

[GPW]

Mike from NH , this might give you some ideas ... http://tnttt.com/VintagePlans/foldingbedroom.pdf Maybe downsized a bit ... But what you really need is a dedicated Expedition vehicle ... Easy to do that on an old Van ... We had an old 60’s Econoline , that we jacked up and customized for going camping at the beach ... Dropped in a “massaged” Ford 300 straight six , headers, special tires ... We went and camped everywhere in that one ...

[dales133]

There are a couple of versions of the roof top tent that have verry little set up at all.
Theres one that i think is made in europe and looks a bit like one of those thule roof boots
It hinges up and has canvas sides to make it more spacious while remaining more streamlined in transit.
I can recall the name but some google imaging should help you out

[rowerwet]

Try hanging the spare on the front bumper, around here beach trucks often do that.
If you want to see where you can cut in the roof, pull the headliner down. Don’t cut any seams,or doubled up sections. You can cut the sections of flat metal. Even then you are taking a risk.
Are you planning on sleeping in the roof area, or just hauling stuff?

[mvankanan]

Try hanging the spare on the front bumper, around here beach trucks often do that.
If you want to see where you can cut in the roof, pull the headliner down. Don’t cut any seams,or doubled up sections. You can cut the sections of flat metal. Even then you are taking a risk.
Are you planning on sleeping in the roof area, or just hauling stuff?

What’s the risk? How do they install sun roofs, I saw a picture on the web of all glass top’s? My question is what’s the skinny with this uni-body stuff; I’ve had folks tell me if you drill a hole in the roof your vehicle will fail. “I won’t even put a sticker on it”!

I will remove the headliner, want to do it correctly, won’t cut any structural pieces. I will need to build some kind of well to both keep water out of the cab and have the opening flush with the floor of the build. My gut tells me plywood inside and out, would reinforce the roof. I also think the whole build will act like a truss on the roof.

I could also incorporate the roof cut outs with a roll bar; the roll bar falls under nice to have, maybe some time in the future. I’m supposed to be able to carry 1150 lbs including people, you supposedly have an option to increase this to 2000 lbs. I would like to save any of my mechanical money for this, heaver bearings, shocks, springs, a bit of a lift, whatever you do. Love to hear from anybody who has a handle on this, but at the same time I don’t want or need a rock crawler, and don’t want to spend 10k, been there done that.

I want to sleep on the roof, that’s the whole purpose, Do I want to carry things on the roof…….. a Proa…..Foamie of course!

I used eye bolts for tie downs on the slug, I have an idea for some quick removable roof racks using eye bolts, stored inside when not in use. They would be a 4” piece of ply across the roof of the build, to spread out the load, a piece of hard wood 1 by, to lift it off the roof and a dowel that drops into an eye bolt to keep it where you want it. A second eye bolt below that one to tie to. I use rope and truckers knots for tie downs. I think this should work.

I think I will work with the idea of the tires in the rear. I’m a dessert rat so any air flow restrictions seem problematic? I need something to support the rear, though I could cantilever the build off the bumper, I’m sure. I also need lights so I’m thinking of something that ends with steel pipes sticking up outside the swing up for the rear hatch. I’m thinking of a contraption like they use to close off roads, a piece with a angle support from the bottom of the hinge side to the middle of the cross piece. This could latch to the other pole on the opposite side of the vehicle. I could attach the lights to uprights, just cheap surface lights, and run the wires inside the pipe, could even put the license plate and lights on the cross bar. It could then swing flat against the vehicle when open. When closed up it could also be a bit of a deterrent against break-ins if locked. A bit of a fool’s errand though, really.

Right now what I would like to know is if all foamies have rafters under the roof, they seem too? So if this has a 4’ wide roof what would I put under this, they seem to be in cut outs, glued. Are they structural, spreaders, what size 1x2, 2x2 combination? I want to build the mock up out of wood and bedsheets to play around with it, and I want to reuse what I buy.

I would also love to have step by step instructions on how to remove the headliner; I’m really hard on those plastic body part clips? I saw a video also but that’s less help then a technical manual with schematics. I butchered the Suby when I did it. I did buy and down load the service manual, that’s both to technical and lacks information at the same time! I can’t believe that’s all you get nowadays, I have a tech manual for an old back-hoe it has everything and drawings, that’s what I want.

Thanks mike

I lost a longer post somehow, never learn!