Trailer tires

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Trailer tires

Postby Shadow Catcher » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:27 pm

As many of you have figured out I am a bit obsessive about information :roll: and with reported problems with trailer tires and about a 30% failure rate including a couple of folks on this forum who have had catastrophic failures.

Portion of a post by Mike Mitchell, NuWa (HitchHiker) CEO in a discussion regarding trailer tires on the NuWa Owner's Forum.

As we banter about regarding tire types and loading, I believe that we are finally starting to understand a few important things.
I have asked many times for someone to explain how a ST tire can be rated to carry more weight than a LT tire in a similar size, without a good answer.
The answer lies in what is called reserve capacity. To quote from Trailer Parts Superstore and this same statement exist on just about every tire site:

HEAVY DUTY 'LT' TRUCK / TRAILER TIRES
'LT' signifies the tire is a "Light Truck/Trailer" series that can be used on trailers that are capable of carrying heavy cargo such as equipment trailers.

If a tire size begins with 'LT' it signifies the tire is a "Light Truck-metric" size that was designed to be used on trailers that are capable of carrying heavy cargo or tow vehicles. Tires branded with the "LT" designation are designed to provide substantial reserve capacity to accept the additional stresses of carrying heavy cargo.

So what is reserve capacity? It is capacity beyond the rating of the tire, capacity that is held in reserve. This reserve capacity comes from the heavy-duty sidewall of the LT type tires. LT's rank at the top of the list when we look at P, ST and LT tires.

Now I finally have an answer to how a ST tire can be rated to carry more weight than a LT tire of similar size.

The ratings of ST tires infringe into the reserve capacity of the tire. This is double bad, because the design of the ST gives us a tire with less reserve capacity to start with as it has a lighter sidewall to start with as most ST tires are much lighter than their LT counterparts.

To quote one tire site:
"Put a different way, the load carrying capacity of an ST tire is 20% greater than an LT tire. Since durability is strictly a long term issue - and the results of a tire failure on a trailer are much less life threatening than on a truck - the folks that set up these load / inflation pressure relationships allow a greater......ah......let's call it load intensity."

There it is in print to be read. They make a calculated decision to give the ST tire a higher load rating because a failure is less life threatening.

I have on a number of occasions pointed out the weight difference between the different tires and have been told that does not matter. Well it does matter. The rubber in the average tire only makes up around 40 some percent of its weight, the rest is in the steel belts, gum strips, steel beads, and the carcass plies. The remaining 60 or so percent of the stuff in a tire is what builds in the reserve capacity.

So to review again, here are some weights:
1. Michelin XPS RIB LT235/85R16 LRE (rated to 3042lbs) Weight 55.41
2. Goodyear G614 LT235/85R16 LRG (rated to 3750lbs) Weight 57.5
3. Bridgestone Duravis R250 LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 60
4. BFG Commercial TA LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 44.44
5. Uniroyal Laredo HD/H LT235/85R16 LRE(rated to 3042lbs) Weight 44.44
6. GY Marathon ST235/80R16 LRE(rated to 3420lbs) Weight 35.4

So which tires on the list have the most reserve capacity? Well that is not a completely simple answer, as one of the tires is a G rate 110 lb tire and the rest are LRE at 80lb inflation. So if we disregard the G614, then the Michelin XPS RIB and the Bridgestone Duravis R250 due to their all-steel ply construction will have the most reserve capacity inherent in their construction. The twin Commercial TA and Laredo will be next and the Marathon would have little or no reserve capacity available because it was used up in its higher load rating, AND because of it's much lighter construction it had much less inherent reserve capacity to start with.

So what have we learn from this?

I think that the first thing that we learned was that a LT tire can be used at or near it max rated loading without having issues, as they built with "substantial reserve capacity to accept the additional stresses of carrying heavy cargo".

The second thing we may have learned is why ST tires are failing on mid to larger 5th wheels, in that they do not have inherent reserve capacity beyond that rated max loading. Again this is because they have less reserve capacity to start with and their greater "load intensity" used up any reserve capacity that might have been available.

Now, here is an interesting bit of information. I just called Maxxis Tech Line and asked the weights for two tires.

ST235/80R16 LRD 3000 lb rating at 65 lbs of air weights 38.58
ST235/80R16 LRE 3420 lb rating at 80 lbs of air weights 43.43

What??? The Maxxis load range E tire weights almost the same as the Commercial TA?? This is a ST tire that has heavier construction than the GY Marathon at 35.4 lbs. So it has more inherent reserve capacity due to its heavier construction.

Those that claimed its virtues maybe did not know why it was a better ST tire than some of the others, but there it is! It is a heavier built tire with more reserve capacity.

So as one chooses a replacement tire or is asking for an upgrade on a new trailer please get educated on where the reserve capacity exist. Is it inherent in the tire you choose or do you have to factor it into the weight rating of the tire you choose.
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Re: Trailer tires

Postby bdosborn » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:28 pm

I went with a Khumo tire after both our Marathons failed last year:

Image

I picked the Khumo for the reasons you've summed up nicely - higher load capacity as well as my gut feeling after reading tons of tire posts that ST tires aren't as good as LTs. Thanks for the write up.

FWIW-

205R14 Khumo weighs 29# and has a 2271# load capacity at 65 psi,
205R14 Marathon weighs 25# and has a 1820# load capacity at 50 psi.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby jonw » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:03 am

ShadowCatcher - good to know. Thanks for your research and info...
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Re: Trailer tires

Postby pete42 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:02 pm

don't forget that the rims have a load rating as well.
I have been camping since the 60's never had a trailer tire blow
I'm either lucky or haven't bought the new Chinese tires.
on every trailer site I get on someone has had blow outs
most seem to have been Carlisle tires.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby dguff » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:22 pm

Not going to matter much about the reserve capacity if each tire on a teardrop or ttt is carrying 350 to 750 pounds load.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Shadow Catcher » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:34 pm

True to a certain extent, most trailer tires on tears are grossly underloaded. However the philosophy that underlies the lack of concern for trailer tires and the fact that virtually all of them are made in China speak to me. I see a "culture" of lack of concern for quality reflected.
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Re: Advice needed on replacement tires

Postby Via » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:32 pm

I am a new 4x 8 TD owner (heck never owned a trailer before); the TD was manufactured in 2006 and weighs about 1000#. My first time out, my TD tire went flat during the night. The shop can't seem to find a cause for the leak. I don't trust it now. It was a new car tire. When I went to Costco they said I needed a trailer tire and have ordered 2 new Towmaster tires. They were telling me something about them being narrower than the previous car tire. I don't know what that means. Does it mean I need new wheels? Costco will put the tire on the wheels, but not mount the tires to my trailer. I was hoping to use the existing wheels, but maybe they are the problem. I checked and the spare tire I am using is a trailer tire. My tow vehicle is a Honda Pilot with LT michelin cross terrain tires and I have very good luck with them. However, the existing tires on the trailer, which give me a nice level ride, only have 4 lugs and are a smaller size so a match doesn't seem in order unless I somehow change the lugs and wheels.

I am concerned about safety. I put a lot of high speed freeway miles getting to various destinations and want the TD and me to get there in one piece. I go on mining roads sometimes getting to a campsite. Maybe the smart thing is to start all over with new tires on new wheels ? If so then do I go with all trailer tires? All car tires? The discussion seems to favor car tires. Maybe I should I spend the money to convert the existing lug/axel to match the tow vehicle tires?

Anyone have any advice?
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Re: Trailer tires

Postby asianflava » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:08 am

bdosborn wrote:I went with a Khumo tire after both our Marathons failed last year:


Hey Bruce, didn't you know that they are only supposed to last 26.2 miles? :D
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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Wolffarmer » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:19 am

My advice, Don't buy a trailer tire for your TD. On a front wheel drive care the rear axle is just a glorified trailer axle and you use the same tires all around. On a light weight teardrop I can not see any need at all for a special tire. Specially if it costs more. I have about 10,000 miles, at least 1,000 gravel, dirt and other rough trails, on my 1100 lbs trailer with axle, springs and wheels from the rear of a VW Rabbit pickup, 185 x 13 inch ties. Using plain old car tires. No problems what so ever. The one I am plaining and have the axle, suspension and wheel will use the same wheel and tires as the TV. Actually will probably use the old tires from it when I put a new set on. That will help keep the rotating mass down. Rotating mass is a mileage killer. And the trailer doesn't need traction from tread like the TV does. And the trailer will weigh under #1000 and will be using 215 or 205 x 15 inch tires. Yes those are over kill on it but then I don't need a spare for the trailer. And if things get really bad I will have 3 spares for the TV.

Just my way of doing things

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Via » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:50 am

Good advice Wolffarmer. But is it feasible to modify my existing axel to fit my TV size tire & wheel?

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Wolffarmer » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:53 am

there might be. There are a lot of variables involved. What I did was this. My TV has 5 hole rims with 5.5 inch diameter. The axle I wanted only came with 4 or 5 lugs 4.5 inch diameter lugs. So I got the 5 lug hubs and then some adapters to the 5.5 inch diameter lugs. Yes this is not the strongest way. But the trailer is very light compared to a full vehicle. Some people will say the offset will be off because the adapters add some extra width. The rims use has a bit more set back than a regular trailer rim so I am back to a bit closer. In my TLAR engineering it will work as once again the loading is rather light. Some will question the strength of the adapter. Well they are used on some very high powered cars on axles that are both powered and braked. I am not worrying about as long as they look to be of good quality.

TLAR=that looks about right.

This is my way of doing things. I have spent a lot of years around farm equipment, building things, fixing things, well more fixing than building. I have no problems with what I did.

Oh, I would not like to change the number of lugs used. In fact those adapters are hard to find. Though if you have 6 lugs TV a six lug trailer hub is hard to find unless you get a high weight capable axle.

The adapters I got added $100 to my set up. But I am happy with the looks of them. Have not used them yet but I am not worried.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Wolffarmer » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:14 am

Via. I just looked up your Honda Pilot specs.

lug wheel size

Your Honda has 5 hole rims so on the trailer you may be able to get 5 lug hubs and adapter like I did. But then your TV tires are 16 x7 inch. Could well be to large for your fenders on the trailer.

Found some 4 lug to 5 lug adapters

4 to 5

There are a lot of them. Do a search 4 lug to 5 lug adapters

lots of choices. The adapter will probably be strong enough where they are used on cars with some nutzo kids driving them. And your TV tires will be a lot better for rough roads. My 13 inch tires are a bit small but they haven't let me down yet.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Augie » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:18 am

Shadow Catcher wrote:True to a certain extent, most trailer tires on tears are grossly underloaded. However the philosophy that underlies the lack of concern for trailer tires and the fact that virtually all of them are made in China speak to me. I see a "culture" of lack of concern for quality reflected.



This statement is beyond absurd, but has been reflected in almost every "sporting" community I have been part of. Sailing with Sails and boats, They are now made overseas for a fraction of the price at the same quality and no one can tell the difference. Bikes, Same. Skis, Same.

Yea you can say "I see a "culture" of lack of concern for quality" but it is more a fear of the unknown, or or fear of something different than truth. Look at cars. The american Manufacturers at one time produced cars of questionable quality and or safety. Currently many of their products are the best in class or market. Should that reflect in your opinion of all products made in the USA????

Economics and somewhat free trade assures manufacturing will flow to the centers of lowest cost with a total fixed output of the world as a whole. Ill buy My bikes, skis, tires, clothing and whatever else is Made in China and not concern myself about too much. Failure can occur in tires made in any country by any company.

My car rides on Riken Tires, The Budget Performance brand of Michilen. Yup 1/2 the cost, made in China and just as good, No worry about quality here.

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Re: Trailer tires

Postby Shadow Catcher » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:38 am

My statement is based in part on the GoodSam study of RV tires and the better than 1/3 failure rate. It is also based on information from one of our church members who wad a Goodyear exec who said "GY tires made in China are crap".
CR now has Michelin 225 70 R14 which have a speed rating and 80,000 mile warranty.
I will also stick by the culture of poor quality, probably in part driven by the likes of wallmart et.el. looking for low prices. All of the hoes ends on my fresh water hoses are leaking and they are all China made and will be replaced with good quality brass.
Yes I do buy products made in China but when they are safety related I am careful.
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Re: Trailer tires

Postby bdosborn » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:22 pm

Augie wrote:This statement is beyond absurd, but has been reflected in almost every "sporting" community I have been part of. Sailing with Sails and boats, They are now made overseas for a fraction of the price at the same quality and no one can tell the difference. Bikes, Same. Skis, Same.

< Snip >


Perhaps you can share your experience with Chinese trailer tires?
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