Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:10 am

I might be the biggest proponent for epoxy around here because it's a medium I'm familiar with, I can get it at wholesale prices, and I'm trying to keep weight down as much as I possibly can. It's not going to be nearly as puncture resistant as ply, will be more water resistant and it will of course be much, much lighter.
But that's just how I've chosen to skin this particular cat...

Like Mel said, it's all about what works for YOU.

...using epoxy (a two part resin) and cloth, rather than fiberglass and resin. I don't really see or understand the difference, other than some chemistry changes...


If I may...
Styrene based resins will eat styrene based foams (like what were using here). That includes the traditional 'stinky' fiberglassing resins and bondo. Epoxy is a completely different formulation - it's like trying to compare oil and water: sure, they're both liquid most of the time, but that's about it.

Epoxies will not eat styrene based foam and, being epoxy, will stick to it like white on rice. They are FAR more pleasant to use. Sometimes, one can develop a sensitivity to the hardener (Part B), typically manifesting as a rash, after prolonged or repeated exposure. That said, I've been using it for years with no more than rubber gloves and haven't had any issues....but in all fairness it has to be mentioned.

Epoxies are indeed brittle on their own, but that's why we reinforce them with fibers or fillers like glass cloth, microfibers, or microspheres (or sawdust, or carpenter's chalk, or graphite, or flour, or...). Epoxy is also tolerant of amateur joinery and gaps of as much as 1/4" can actually be stronger than a tight joint depending on the filler used.
Lastly, it's actually more economical for the amateur builder, despite epoxies' higher initial prices. The same bottles of resin and hardener can be used for gluing, filling, glassing, and even painting with the addition of additives with no worry about compatibility.

...and I want the extra sturdiness of having a thin ply on both sides of the foam.

If you are talking about 1/8 ply, a similar thickness of epoxy will be stronger in most aspects and will be waterproof. With ply, you are depending on your coating (paint) to keep water from delaminating the plies. Any delamination in an epoxy layup is either excessive heat or surface contamination. It's only with styrene based layups that delam is common (like blisters on boat hulls - an epoxy barrier coat is applied specifically to reduce blistering)

Lastly, epoxy can be applied on top of styrene based products, but not the other way around. If you try and seal your foam with epoxy to prevent bondo from eating it, the bondo won't kick off before the styrene evaporates out of it.
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby mdk » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:01 am

Wobbly Wheels wrote:I
If I may...
Styrene based resins will eat styrene based foams (like what were using here). That includes the traditional 'stinky' fiberglassing resins and bondo. Epoxy is a completely different formulation - it's like trying to compare oil and water: sure, they're both liquid most of the time, but that's about it.

Epoxies will not eat styrene based foam and, being epoxy, will stick to it like white on rice. They are FAR more pleasant to use. Sometimes, one can develop a sensitivity to the hardener (Part B), typically manifesting as a rash, after prolonged or repeated exposure. That said, I've been using it for years with no more than rubber gloves and haven't had any issues....but in all fairness it has to be mentioned.

Epoxies are indeed brittle on their own, but that's why we reinforce them with fibers or fillers like glass cloth, microfibers, or microspheres (or sawdust, or carpenter's chalk, or graphite, or flour, or...). Epoxy is also tolerant of amateur joinery and gaps of as much as 1/4" can actually be stronger than a tight joint depending on the filler used.
Lastly, it's actually more economical for the amateur builder, despite epoxies' higher initial prices. The same bottles of resin and hardener can be used for gluing, filling, glassing, and even painting with the addition of additives with no worry about compatibility.


Ok, now I understand the difference, at least superficially. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby atahoekid » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:53 pm

WW,

Since you seem to have quite bit of knowledge about epoxy and fiberglass and I am still a novice, maybe I can get your opinion. I am planning on skinning the exterior with fiberglass cloth and epoxy. I was not planning on thickening the epoxy as I wet out the glass. I am hoping for a smooth, paintable surface. Assuming I do a good job with wet out and use enough epoxy to get a bit of build up, will I succeed in getting that surface? What do you think? Will it provide some protection (puncture resistance)? Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Mel

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:26 pm

Thx Mel, I've used a fair bit of epoxy but I'm by no means an expert.

***I had typed out a wordy reply here, but it came out as a hijack. I've been thinking about starting an "epoxy" thread with some of the resources that have helped me to learn about it and posting some helpful pics to avoid the thousand words.
Not that anyone here likes pics, of course. :lol:
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby atahoekid » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:26 pm

I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts on epoxy and especially if you could address my "method". Start a new subject. I'm sure there will be a few readers
Mel

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby GPW » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:37 am

If you’re going to make fiberglas/foam/ply “sandwiches” then I’d really recommend vacuum bagging ... which makes SOLID units and Smooth finishes ... Not difficult to do , shop Vac works good for the pump ...
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:16 am

Will do. I'm putting in a few days' worth of hours this weekend but when I get a chance I'll set it up.
Too rainy to work on the trailer this w/e anyway...
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Larry C » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:35 am

Wobbly Wheels wrote:I might be the biggest proponent for epoxy around here because it's a medium I'm familiar with, I can get it at wholesale prices, and I'm trying to keep weight down as much as I possibly can. It's not going to be nearly as puncture resistant as ply, will be more water resistant and it will of course be much, much lighter.
But that's just how I've chosen to skin this particular cat...

Like Mel said, it's all about what works for YOU.

...using epoxy (a two part resin) and cloth, rather than fiberglass and resin. I don't really see or understand the difference, other than some chemistry changes...


If I may...
Styrene based resins will eat styrene based foams (like what were using here). That includes the traditional 'stinky' fiberglassing resins and bondo. Epoxy is a completely different formulation - it's like trying to compare oil and water: sure, they're both liquid most of the time, but that's about it.

Epoxies will not eat styrene based foam and, being epoxy, will stick to it like white on rice. They are FAR more pleasant to use. Sometimes, one can develop a sensitivity to the hardener (Part B), typically manifesting as a rash, after prolonged or repeated exposure. That said, I've been using it for years with no more than rubber gloves and haven't had any issues....but in all fairness it has to be mentioned.

Epoxies are indeed brittle on their own, but that's why we reinforce them with fibers or fillers like glass cloth, microfibers, or microspheres (or sawdust, or carpenter's chalk, or graphite, or flour, or...). Epoxy is also tolerant of amateur joinery and gaps of as much as 1/4" can actually be stronger than a tight joint depending on the filler used.
Lastly, it's actually more economical for the amateur builder, despite epoxies' higher initial prices. The same bottles of resin and hardener can be used for gluing, filling, glassing, and even painting with the addition of additives with no worry about compatibility.

...and I want the extra sturdiness of having a thin ply on both sides of the foam.

If you are talking about 1/8 ply, a similar thickness of epoxy will be stronger in most aspects and will be waterproof. With ply, you are depending on your coating (paint) to keep water from delaminating the plies. Any delamination in an epoxy layup is either excessive heat or surface contamination. It's only with styrene based layups that delam is common (like blisters on boat hulls - an epoxy barrier coat is applied specifically to reduce blistering)

Lastly, epoxy can be applied on top of styrene based products, but not the other way around. If you try and seal your foam with epoxy to prevent bondo from eating it, the bondo won't kick off before the styrene evaporates out of it.



Brian,
You are not alone in being a proponent of using epoxy/glass. I too have had a lot of experience using it. The problem here has been every time it's brought up, it's in thread that tends to have a lot of anti-epoxy posters, and any helpful info tends to get shot down quickly. I would also welcome an epoxy only thread where the many many methods of applying and using epoxy are the primary thread topic, so we don't hijack another thread. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I am using epoxy/glass throughout my build.
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35852

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http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35852
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby atahoekid » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:01 am

OK WW and Larry C. There seem to be at least three of us doing the epoxy fiberglass thing here, so I'm starting a new thread here under the Foamies section.. Come by and put in your thoughts. Being a relative noob to epoxy, I want to gather all the thoughts on it that I can before doing it. See you at the thread....
Mel

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Larry C » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:06 am

atahoekid wrote:WW,

Since you seem to have quite bit of knowledge about epoxy and fiberglass and I am still a novice, maybe I can get your opinion. I am planning on skinning the exterior with fiberglass cloth and epoxy. I was not planning on thickening the epoxy as I wet out the glass. I am hoping for a smooth, paintable surface. Assuming I do a good job with wet out and use enough epoxy to get a bit of build up, will I succeed in getting that surface? What do you think? Will it provide some protection (puncture resistance)? Thanks for sharing your expertise.


Mel,
Assuming we soon will get our own "Epoxy" thread, I will be brief so not to hijack this thread. Yes, you will get a perfectly smooth finish using epoxy/glass. However, burying the glass in epoxy may take several coats and will require sanding. The glass/epoxy will offer a lot of strength and puncture resistance. Is this smooth enough?

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Larry C » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:10 am

atahoekid wrote:OK WW and Larry C. There seem to be at least three of us doing the epoxy fiberglass thing here, so I'm starting a new thread here under the Foamies section.. Come by and put in your thoughts. Being a relative noob to epoxy, I want to gather all the thoughts on it that I can before doing it. See you at the thread....


I would like it to be a stand alone thread where anyone wanting epoxy/glass info can find it.
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby atahoekid » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:24 am

Yeah, that would be plenty smooth enough... Kayaks are kinda what gave me my inspiration for that smooth surface. However with a foam substrate, I was planning on painting the surface. We'll talk about that in the thread. I started a thread in the Foamies section, but I like your thinking. I'm going to take it down and repost under the construction techniques section in the main index. See ya there!
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby angib » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:30 am

As a former epoxy user, I think it would be a great service to the forum if someone would take photos of their trailer as it gets epoxied and summarise how much work it takes - 'smooth' can mean anything from 'not rough enough to draw blood if you rub your hand over it' to 'like glass' (the photo above). Similarly by 'sanding' some folk mean 'as much work as dusting' and others mean 'one day of hard physical work between each coat'.

It would be good to avoid the situation where anyone thinks they are going to get the 'like glass' finish shown above by painting epoxy onto glass once or twice, maybe rubbing it with sandpaper for ten minutes between coats.
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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby atahoekid » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:52 am

So I created that thread epoxy/fiberglass and here's the link http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=49361

Angib, you're right. Smooth can mean so many things and it would be important to point out that a beautiful finish like that on the kayak above is a commitment to many hours of detail oriented work with your nose inches off the surface. That finish does not come easy. I'm hoping for something that paints up nicely, shows a nice gloss to the finish but doesn't need to be mirror smooth... For me, something like a current mass produced RV finish would be a baseline to aim for.
Mel

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Re: Construction for a traditional shape travel trailer...

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:51 am

Thanks Mel, heading there now to check it out !
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