Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby KCStudly » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:37 pm

SamIam,
Welcome to the forum and congratulations on getting thru the massive thrifty thread. You are now an exclusive member of the foamistas.

Check your understanding of the science of mechanics. A member’s reaction to load (be it a wall panel, trailer frame member, piece of I-beam, etc.) will always rely on the outer most fibers with relation to its center of mass (in the context of a wall panel, the innermost and outermost skins) to determine its ultimate strength, be it in compression, tension, or torque. That is where the most leverage occurs.

Assuming that your wall panels will only be loaded from the inside out and that the outer skins will only be in tension is folly. On the same hand, assuming that your inner skins will only ever be in compression is also folly.

Think about it. Your walls might see loads from the inside from you lying against the wall, you trying to put your head or foot thru the front wall or bulkhead, or an outside load being transferred through the cabinets and/or bulkhead from the opposite side of the trailer. Even from a bored youngster kicking at the wall.

Loads from the outside in can be from wind load, a person leaning against the side wall, or, in the case of an off road camper, trees and bushes rubbing against the outside, et al.

Take it from me, the foam has very little strength in and of itself (see my thread where my wall fell over in the shop and broke itself).

What makes you think that the inside surface of the wall will only ever see compressive loads? Oh by the way, the foam dents very easily from even minor localized concentrated loads, it is only good in compression when loaded evenly over a broad surface area. Believe me, I have used more than my fair share of spackle filling dents and dings. Paint won’t help this much at all. You need to protect the inner walls (and anything else foam) from incidental contact, especially amazons!

Jack B., Welcome to you, too.
There was a very interesting radio show on NPR today about patent trolls and the legal issues surrounding patent infringement (listened to it while I was working on TPCE today). It turns out that there is a whole industry of patent infringement lawsuits where people submit patents of good ideas that aren’t necessarily unique, substantially ground breaking, or even solely their own. Lots of shady lawyers, shell corporations, and frivolous lawsuits. Then they sell the patent to another entity owned by the same person/people (they have a whole office building full of empty offices in order to establish a legal address) so that they can sue the same corporations all over again. They really are just hoping that the big corporations that really made it happen will just settle, and they usually do. 100’s of millions of $ for being slimy backstabbing thieves.

How do you expect to profit by chasing “Joe foamie builder” for patent infringement, and how do you expect to prove that it was solely your idea, after stating to the world what has already been bantered about openly in this thread by many that have come before you?

Okay, ok, I realize that you are probably just kidding, and so am I, but really? What is it about your epiphany that is new and solely your own? I didn’t see a distinction.
But really, welcome. Don’t take this the wrong way. I admire you entrepreneurial spirit. :thumbsup:
KC
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby Mary C » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:00 pm

I did not plan to say, but I plan to use a special printed paper and just use glue and spread it around under and over on the inside. I will take along the paper and glue when I travel. I will just cover the inside as I go, no rush. I am relying on the canvas put on the outside. with glue and then painted.I agree with KC that to overestimate that the inside canvas is mandatory is folly. I do know from my experiment that the canvas I used, didn't need sewing. It glued right down once dry it is not necessary to sew the seams. I am a seamstress and I am not going to sew on mine. Too much effort for too little return. When you get to be my age, that is a very big thing. Welcome to the forum not everyone has red the entire thread so congratulations. The thread is thrifty, I am making mine to be easy, without a lot of work either, light weight and one which can be built by (a woman) anyone who is not wood working inclined. =A simple and easy TD for the novices out there. There will be two unique things about mine as I know there will be interesting things about yours too. Use your energy to camp after all we camp to relax I am building in a relaxed manner, taking my time!!!
:SH :Flippin Burger: :picnic: :relaxing: :icedtea: :fan: :FNP

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby Jack B. » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:26 pm

Okay KC, point taken. And you WILL be hearing from my lawyers first thing Monday morning.

What is an original idea? Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile which does not deny his originality in improving it. T. Edison didn't really invent the light bulb, just improved it through long, hard, menial work. The Wright Bros. didn't invent the airplane or even fly one first. Ugh Knuckledragger didn't invent fire either. Once he figured out about clicking two rocks together or rubbing two sticks together however, heating and cooking history was made.

The beginnings of an idea are almost never where the results can even be perceived. There are myriad number of paths that an idea can take. Could anybody have predicted that from melting wax onto cardboard tubes and scratching it with a needle that the iPod would eventually evolve. Ben Franklin neither invented or discovered electricity but I'll bet his contributions to women's hair curling techniques will not soon be forgotten.

As for profiting from the foamanistas here, just like Earl, I intend for karma to pay me back. Once it's done paying off for some of the "other" stuff I may have earned over the years that is. If it was possible that the idea I was "claiming" was new and could be profitable it would still be stuck in line behind the 50+ actual original tunes for jazz bands, combos, string quartets, piano and organ/trumpet,etc. that are still waiting to be officially registered with the copyright office.

I guess what you were trying to say was that my pre-fab idea isn't new to the world. Most pertinent patents nowadays aren't for grand ideas and majestic accomplishments. They are, for the most part, ideas to implement and/or improve in often small ways on an already existing process or item. I'm sure we had white gooey stuff in little bottles before Michael (of the Monkees) Nesmith's mother thought to use some form of it as Wite-Out for correcting typing mistakes. No biggie but she left her son a big inheritance when she died.

Maybe the idea isn't new, but until we get mass produced foam campers we won't know if somebody took a variant of the idea to engineering and said "this way of doing things will save us time in production". 'Cause as we all know-TIME IS MONEY.

Whew. I do go on sometimes. But like the song says: Floyd, I was born a Rambler man.

Jack
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby Jack B. » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:35 pm

So G. all I need to do is take my thinner sheet of foam and slowly bend it around a curve while spreading the hotter than warm air along the area to get bent? Inside and out of the curve or just one side? I do hope it's the outside because if you were to try heating the inside on a second layer it would tend to dry the glue or paint adhesive too quickly. I seem to remember this coming up back there in the olden pages but don't remember the specifics.

I may tend to ramble but I can do on topic if need be.

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby GPW » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:17 am

Jack , ... Yes !!! ;) 190F is the target temperature ... no more or the foam will melt ... The outside is the tension side , where the heat needs to be applied ...

Here ’s how we did it for planes... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthre ... ndfoam+gpw Thinner Blu foam , same principle ...
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby eaglesdare » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:41 am

Welcome to the forum.
I am with Mary, I don't believe there is any reason (other than personal) for sewing the seams. My camper is in the 3rd year of use and those seams are still holding just fine.
Now my inside is only canvased on the roof, no walls. I have only just this year painted the inside foam. I have had no problems.
I had a bunk bed from side to side on mine, and I have had kids kick the heck out of my walls, again no problems. I eventually have gotten rid of the bunk bed, due mainly to being afraid of long term kicking and what that might do to the joints.
My shell was built in one weekend with 2 more weekends for canvassing and painting. Its not a fancy attractive tear that people want to oo and ah over, but it works and I am camping.

so build to the way you want, no rights or wrongs here. Enjoy! :wine:
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby GPW » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:11 am

Eagle is “living proof” of the Foamie’ concept ... " but it works and I am camping.” ... That about says it all ... :applause:
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby Jack B. » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Well G, I followed the link and found you plane guys talking about shaping foam. I haven't perused the entire thread yet but didn't see a "how-to" system written up in as far as I got. Where in the thread should a guy navigate to for the tutorial video I just know is lurking in there somewhere?

2" beadboard and two 1" curved/bent layers for a roof seems like a fine idea. Of course a 1" beadboard outer layer and a much easier to cut and work with a 1" pink inner layer for walls that you can insert your hard points, wiring and such would/could/should perhaps be even better. A nice coating of Da Gripper between foam layers should do the trick, right?

I know it might defeat the economical aspect, but I wonder how parachute fabric would work for an outer skin. That stuff is tough and sometimes shows up in salvage and surplus shops.

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby atahoekid » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:03 am

Hey Jack, Welcome to the madness. I think parachute material will make a great skin. I don't know if your adhesive of choice would leak through the fabric and I don't know if that's even an issue but it should work just fine.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby SamIAm » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:23 am

KCStudly wrote:SamIam,
Welcome to the forum and congratulations on getting thru the massive thrifty thread. You are now an exclusive member of the foamistas.

Check your understanding of the science of mechanics. A member’s reaction to load (be it a wall panel, trailer frame member, piece of I-beam, etc.) will always rely on the outer most fibers with relation to its center of mass (in the context of a wall panel, the innermost and outermost skins) to determine its ultimate strength, be it in compression, tension, or torque. That is where the most leverage occurs.

Assuming that your wall panels will only be loaded from the inside out and that the outer skins will only be in tension is folly. On the same hand, assuming that your inner skins will only ever be in compression is also folly.

Think about it. Your walls might see loads from the inside from you lying against the wall, you trying to put your head or foot thru the front wall or bulkhead, or an outside load being transferred through the cabinets and/or bulkhead from the opposite side of the trailer. Even from a bored youngster kicking at the wall.

Loads from the outside in can be from wind load, a person leaning against the side wall, or, in the case of an off road camper, trees and bushes rubbing against the outside, et al.

Take it from me, the foam has very little strength in and of itself (see my thread where my wall fell over in the shop and broke itself).

What makes you think that the inside surface of the wall will only ever see compressive loads? Oh by the way, the foam dents very easily from even minor localized concentrated loads, it is only good in compression when loaded evenly over a broad surface area. Believe me, I have used more than my fair share of spackle filling dents and dings. Paint won’t help this much at all. You need to protect the inner walls (and anything else foam) from incidental contact, especially amazons!

Jack B., Welcome to you, too.
There was a very interesting radio show on NPR today about patent trolls and the legal issues surrounding patent infringement (listened to it while I was working on TPCE today). It turns out that there is a whole industry of patent infringement lawsuits where people submit patents of good ideas that aren’t necessarily unique, substantially ground breaking, or even solely their own. Lots of shady lawyers, shell corporations, and frivolous lawsuits. Then they sell the patent to another entity owned by the same person/people (they have a whole office building full of empty offices in order to establish a legal address) so that they can sue the same corporations all over again. They really are just hoping that the big corporations that really made it happen will just settle, and they usually do. 100’s of millions of $ for being slimy backstabbing thieves.

How do you expect to profit by chasing “Joe foamie builder” for patent infringement, and how do you expect to prove that it was solely your idea, after stating to the world what has already been bantered about openly in this thread by many that have come before you?

Okay, ok, I realize that you are probably just kidding, and so am I, but really? What is it about your epiphany that is new and solely your own? I didn’t see a distinction.
But really, welcome. Don’t take this the wrong way. I admire you entrepreneurial spirit. :thumbsup:


Hi KC
I was thinking of the tear as a unit, not considering some of the loads you had considered (kicking, leaning, wind etc) and looking at it now I see the benefit of covering the inside of the walls, although from the reported experience of some of the builders here, it seems like it may not be necessary, even though it does add strength. Covering in the inside seems to be, from what I read, a PITA, and I would prefer a smooth finish on the inside, done with relative ease.

GPW, you have rounded the corners on yours- I don't recall what problems, if any, you had with wrinkles, and if so, how did you deal with it? (don't really want to read through 380 pgs again to find out!) I would like to have rounded corners, but worry about the potential for wrinkles
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby GPW » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:27 am

Sam , with a stretchable fabric , like canvas, there are no wrinkles ... I slightly dampen the canvas and stretch it over the rounded areas... even compound curves can be covered pretty easy , with no darts ... ;) It has it’s limits naturally , so covering has to be planned ... :thinking:
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby SamIAm » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:09 am

GPW wrote:Sam , with a stretchable fabric , like canvas, there are no wrinkles ... I slightly dampen the canvas and stretch it over the rounded areas... even compound curves can be covered pretty easy , with no darts ... ;) It has it’s limits naturally , so covering has to be planned ... :thinking:


Oh that is great news! I recalled someone saying something about cutting and gluing each individual wrinkle and that sounded a lot like tedium to me :? not really what I am up for. I am great at starting projects, but finishing them takes more work, so the easier I can make the finishing steps, the better I am to myself! What is the approximate radius of the top-to-side curve, to help with the planning.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby GPW » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:48 am

A safe radius would be the thickness of the foam .... Viz. 2" thick foam could easily have a two inch radius ...
A Nice neat covering is an “unhurried “ job !!! It’s where you have to do your Best work because that’s what Everybody sees first ... :frightened:
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby couponjnp » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:46 pm

atahoekid wrote:Hey Jack, Welcome to the madness. I think parachute material will make a great skin. I don't know if your adhesive of choice would leak through the fabric and I don't know if that's even an issue but it should work just fine.


The parachute material (rip-stop nylon) is really strong and hard to tear because of its periodically woven strong threads. I think it will be really strong skin. However, the fabric is usually coated with waterproof/resistant coating (generally some type of silicon). So, before using the fabric, it is importatant to have the fabric water wettable (hydrophilic). I don't have any idea how to make it hydrophilic at this moment but if someone have any idea then it is worth a try.

My 2 cents.

Thanks,

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ... Building Foam TDs

Postby GPW » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:56 pm

JNP JMHO, I’m sticking (literally) with old school Canvas... we know that works , it’s very strong and not expensive ... But a parachute would make a Dandy open air canopy for outside ... :thinking: ... 8)
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